Blocked Shot?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by griblets

The question for me is whether A1 is considered in the act of shooting after the ball is stripped. I've referenced rules regarding the start and end of a shot, and I'm still not sure. By literal interpretation of 4-1 and 4-41-1, I lean toward a shooting foul. The shot began, the airborne shooter had not returned to the floor, therefore, he is still protected as an airborne shooter. Yet, I'd have a hard time call it that way.

An airborne shooter is a player who has released the ball on a try. He didn't, so he isn't.

I agree he is still allowed a place to land.

Call a common foul.

[griblets]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

An airborne shooter is a player who has released the ball on a try. He didn't, so he isn't.

You almost had me, but I'm not sold, yet...

4-41-2 - "...A player is trying for goal when the player has the ball and in the official's judgment is throwing or attempting to throw for goal. It is not essential that the ball leave the player's hand..."

Therefore, if B1's strip was considered a foul, we would have a shooting foul, even though A1 had not "released" the ball on a try. Therefore, I think we have clearly defined A1 to be an airborne shooter, even though the ball was stripped by B1.

Good discussion.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by griblets

You almost had me, but I'm not sold, yet...

4-41-2 - "...A player is trying for goal when the player has the ball and in the official's judgment is throwing or attempting to throw for goal. It is not essential that the ball leave the player's hand..."

Therefore, if B1's strip was considered a foul, we would have a shooting foul, even though A1 had not "released" the ball on a try. Therefore, I think we have clearly defined A1 to be an airborne shooter, even though the ball was stripped by B1.

Good discussion.

But, the ball did leave the player's hand.

And, because it was blocked, and (assumption) it was certain the throw would be unsuccessful, the try ended.

Since the act of shooting ends when the ball is released, and includes the airborne shooter, and since the player is not an airborne shooter, it's not a shooting foul.

[Pantherdreams]

Just for the sake of clarification in the OP. The player attempting to be a shooter does jump straight up and down. THe player diving after the ball does make contact with the legs of the player trying to land as he dives for the loose ball, effectively undercutting him.

If a player were just jumping for pass or for fun at midcourt and a diving player took them out I would have a foul. So I feel you have to have something on B2. Just not sure if its a shooting foul or not.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

Just for the sake of clarification in the OP. The player attempting to be a shooter does jump straight up and down. THe player diving after the ball does make contact with the legs of the player trying to land as he dives for the loose ball, effectively undercutting him.

If a player were just jumping for pass or for fun at midcourt and a diving player took them out I would have a foul. So I feel you have to have something on B2. Just not sure if its a shooting foul or not.

Was he an airborne shooter?

[Pantherdreams]

Originally Posted by Adam

Was he an airborne shooter?

Thats what I'm trying to establish . . .seems opinion is mixed.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

Thats what I'm trying to establish . . .seems opinion is mixed.

You've read the relevant rules and the arguments here -- what is your opinion / decision?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

Thats what I'm trying to establish . . .seems opinion is mixed.

Not an airborne shooter for two reasons.

First, he left the ball without the ball. Had he released a try before jumping, the answer would be the same.

Second, and most importantly, he never released a try. An airborne shooter must be someone who has either released a try, or still has the ball and is attempting to do so. Your player is simply someone who had the ball stolen who then proceeded to jump into the air.

[luvhoops]

It sounds as if it has been determined that the player began as a shooter and then when the ball was stripped (and it was clear it wasn't going in the hoop) the player became a non-shooter.

Given that, it would be a common foul.

Now, same scenario however ball is hit out of shooter's hand but still goes towards the hoop (meaning it has a chance to go in the hoop). Does that make our player an airborne shooter still when he gets his legs clipped and thus 2 FT's would be awarded if the ball does not enter the hoop?

[La Rikardo]

4-1-1: "An airborne shooter is a player who has released the ball on a try for a goal or has tapped the ball and has not returned to the floor."

4-23-5b: "Guarding a moving opponent without the ball: The guard must give the opponent the time and/or distance to avoid contact."

By my reading, A1 is not an airborne shooter, as he did not release the ball on a try for goal; the ball was stripped by B2 before A1 was able to release the ball on a try.

However, all Team B players must give A1 time and/or distance to avoid contact. If A1 is caused to fall by a Team B player (as opposed to a Team A player who might dive in an attempt to secure the loose ball), that player is guilty of a common foul.

Also note that since the ball was never in flight on a try for goal, Team A will continue to have team control until a Team B player secures control of the ball or the ball becomes dead. Any common foul committed by a Team A player until that time will be a team-control foul.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by griblets

You almost had me, but I'm not sold, yet...

4-41-2 - "...A player is trying for goal when the player has the ball and in the official's judgment is throwing or attempting to throw for goal. It is not essential that the ball leave the player's hand..."

Therefore, if B1's strip was considered a foul, we would have a shooting foul, even though A1 had not "released" the ball on a try. Therefore, I think we have clearly defined A1 to be an airborne shooter, even though the ball was stripped by B1.

Good discussion.

When the foul occurs he is not throwing or attempting to throw anything. He doesn't have the ball when the foul occurs, therefore, he is not throwing or attempting to throw anything. If there is a foul at this point, it is a common foul.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by griblets

You almost had me, but I'm not sold, yet...

4-41-2 - "...A player is trying for goal when the player has the ball and in the official's judgment is throwing or attempting to throw for goal. It is not essential that the ball leave the player's hand..."

Therefore, if B1's strip was considered a foul, we would have a shooting foul, even though A1 had not "released" the ball on a try. Therefore, I think we have clearly defined A1 to be an airborne shooter, even though the ball was stripped by B1.

Good discussion.

No, once the ball is stripped, A1 is no longer trying to shoot the ball. He is airborne, but not an airborne shooter. As Bob said, and airborne shooter is one who released the ball on a try.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

An airborne shooter is a player who has released the ball on a try. He didn't, so he isn't.

I agree he is still allowed a place to land.

Call a common foul.

Excellent explanation. If the ball is stripped or knocked out of the shooter's hands by a defender before he is able to release the try, then team control continues as there never was a try in flight. There is an NFHS Interp on this from about 2005.

Edit: Here is the Interp.
2003-04 NFHS BASKETBALL RULES INTERPRETATIONS
SITUATION 5: At the top of the key, A1 beats B1 off the dribble, reaches the free-throw line, and pulls up for a jump shot. At the apex of the jump and before the ball is released, B2 comes from the side and swats the ball out of A1’s hands. The ball goes behind A1, deflects off A2 and into the backcourt, where A3 is the first to touch it. RULING: A backcourt violation shall be called. Team control had continued for Team A because the try ended before the ball was in flight. (4-12-3a; 4-40-3,4; 9-9-1)