TO request when you have no timeouts

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by Knights_Coach

Thank you gentlemen for your quick replies and answers. I wasn't arguing the 5 sec count because he definitely got it in before the count, it was that the player requested the TO well before the 5 sec were up. It was just a hard pill to swallow and what do you tell your athletes when we did everything right.

Because this was the 1st round of the tournament, we are out and now have to watch the team advance the next day only winning 22-24. Now, they're in the championship game when we, the #8 team, which was 1-11 in district compared to their 11-1 in district, have to play host. Again, thanks.

As hard as it is to swallow that pill, you just tell your kids how great they played to almost beat the #1 seed. And it may not be what you want to hear, but that one call (or lack of a call) is not what lost you the game. There were many shots missed, turnovers made, and missed plays on defense that led to the outcome. That's what you'll remember but it's not what you should let your kids remember. IMO

[Knights_Coach]

Originally Posted by Smitty

As hard as it is to swallow that pill, you just tell your kids how great they played to almost beat the #1 seed. And it may not be what you want to hear, but that one call (or lack of a call) is not what lost you the game. There were many shots missed, turnovers made, and missed plays on defense that led to the outcome. That's what you'll remember but it's not what you should let your kids remember. IMO

Smitty and you know that's exactly what we told our boys. This lack of a call wasn't the only thing that cost us the game. I just got on this forum to get a little clarification and vent. We missed FTs, missed boxing out assignments, TOs, etc. We are not blaming the refs. Let's get that straight, refs are humans, too. But I was told by one ref. "It's OK to miss a call but not a RULE."

Again, thank you all.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by Knights_Coach

But I was told by one ref. "It's OK to miss a call but not a RULE."

I am assuming based on your post in one of the other threads that you coach at the middle school level. Fortunately or unfortunately, that's the main training ground for most new officials. Like it or not, you'll often get officials who are new or relatively new and just don't know all the rules yet. Or they are just not applying the rules properly and are stuck at this level for a long time. It's just the way it is in the middle school world.

Nice job taking the #1 seed into OT. What a great learning experience for these kids, and maybe when they're in high school and they are in a similar situation, they will do what it takes to win regardless of a missed call or two.

[Knights_Coach]

Originally Posted by Smitty

I am assuming based on your post in one of the other threads that you coach at the middle school level. Fortunately or unfortunately, that's the main training ground for most new officials. Like it or not, you'll often get officials who are new or relatively new and just don't know all the rules yet. Or they are just not applying the rules properly and are stuck at this level for a long time. It's just the way it is in the middle school world.

Nice job taking the #1 seed into OT. What a great learning experience for these kids, and maybe when they're in high school and they are in a similar situation, they will do what it takes to win regardless of a missed call or two.

Yes, sir. I coach at the MS level. And I was told this morning by one of the Assistant Executive Directors, that yes, the MS level is where a lot of new refs go learn and get better. Again, I'm not here to bash. For the most part, I don't have a problem with them. It was the "non-call" but if it wasn't for that I would not known how to read the NFHS Rule Book. This situation has made me more aware of the rules whereas in the past I never looked them up. It has become my Bible haha.

One thing that kind of urks me is, I was told by several refs, that I can confide in, if I bring out the NFHS Rule Book during the game to show them or question a ref, expect to be tossed out of the game. So what good does it do me during a game? I've never seen somebody kicked out of court for bringing a Bible or The Constitution in court...get it court? Haha, thanks

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Knights_Coach

Yes, sir. I coach at the MS level. And I was told this morning by one of the Assistant Executive Directors, that yes, the MS level is where a lot of new refs go learn and get better. Again, I'm not here to bash. For the most part, I don't have a problem with them. It was the "non-call" but if it wasn't for that I would not known how to read the NFHS Rule Book. This situation has made me more aware of the rules whereas in the past I never looked them up. It has become my Bible haha.

One thing that kind of urks me is, I was told by a ref that I can confide in, if I bring out the NFHS Rule Book during the game, expect to be tossed out of the game. So what good does it do me during a game? I've never seen somebody kicked out of court for bringing a Bible or The Constitution in court...get it court? Haha, thanks

You can bring the Constitution to Court…but don't pull it out to tell the Judge he doesn't know what's in it…unless you have a few hours to kill...

[deecee]

At the middle school level I would toss a coach that rolled the rule book out.

Maybe at the Varsity level I would only give 1 T, and then if he kept going on I would issue #2 (maybe I would toss, I don't know what I would honestly do). But coaches know better than to act that way at the V level.

It's no different then during most games I go up in the rafters and tear down the "sportsmanship" banner that a lot of schools have on how fans, players and coaches are expected to act. Then I would wrap him in it and pull the end really fast so the coach becomes a top spinning all the way to the locker room.

But I digress, errors by officials are magnified way more than errors by players or coaches. If you break a game down I am pretty sure officials err way less than either players or coaches, and absolutely less than if you combine those 2 groups.

[Knights_Coach]

Originally Posted by BigCat

You can bring the Constitution to Court…but don't pull it out to tell the Judge he doesn't know what's in it…unless you have a few hours to kill...

Who's saying that I or anyone is saying the ref didn't know what he was saying? I know they know more than I do as far as the rules go. Knowing what I know now, I wouldn't but it would have been just for clarification purposes just like how I confided and some other refs after my game. I just want a better understanding. This is not a hot dog swinging contest. In my example, it was tied w/ seconds left. The other team had 0 TOs but still called TO, it wasn't granted. The tech would have allowed us to hit or miss our FTs but we would have gotten the ball. Let the game end in the teams' hands not at the hands of the refs.

No one is saying coaches & players don't make mistakes. We've made plenty. Refs are trying their hardest. I know I couldn't do it. Not yet anyway. Missing FTs, not boxing out, horrible Defense, etc. The refs didn't lose the game for us. We should have executed better. Again, I'm only here to get clarification, not bash. I have friends that are refs.

[deecee]

Don't think you are here to bash but the fact remains, the only T if you busted the rule book out at that spot would have been on you. In the end the lack of knowledge or skill on an official's part applies to both teams equally. It may just appear that you got the short end of the stick, but the size of the stick is relative.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Knights_Coach

Who's saying that I or anyone is saying the ref didn't know what he was saying?

The moment you pull it out on the court to show an official, YOU are saying exactly that.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by Knights_Coach

One thing that kind of urks me is, I was told by several refs, that I can confide in, if I bring out the NFHS Rule Book during the game to show them or question a ref, expect to be tossed out of the game. So what good does it do me during a game? I've never seen somebody kicked out of court for bringing a Bible or The Constitution in court...get it court? Haha, thanks

Pretty sure he was referring to this comment you made, which is fully relevant. You're becoming less sympathetic with every post. The official made a mistake because he probably set aside a rule, which he shouldn't have. I'm sure he was educated, based on the email you posted. You made your point. You had a rough season as indicated by your record. You almost pulled a big upset at the end. Take away the positives and not the negatives. Maybe it's time to let it go and move on...

[deecee]

It's all about the kids. Little Johnny, Billy, Charlie, and The Fonz get the short end of the stick every time. The humanity, the inhumane treatment of the youth, the, the....you get it.

It's for the kids.

[Knights_Coach]

Smitty, you're right. Time to let it go. Time heals all wounds. I think I was the one looking for sympathy. I'd just like to say thanks to everyone, again for the great conversation.

Deecee, you're absolutely right. It's for the kids. If no one is there to fight for them. Who will? We licked our wounds and we are already planning for the next season.

I've learned so much about the game and myself. And I have A WHOLE LOT more to learn about the game. Gentlemen, if I've offended any I do apologize. So long and have a great weekend.