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Old Thu Jan 08, 2015, 10:58am
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Ruling on player fan interaction.

10-3-8 says being charged with fighting. It never mentions fighting who. Would would charge green with a flagrant T under NFHS rules?

Story here:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2...aign=editorial


Last edited by jeremy341a; Thu Jan 08, 2015 at 11:00am.
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Old Thu Jan 08, 2015, 11:05am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy341a View Post
10-3-8 says being charged with fighting. It never mentions fighting who. Would would charge green with a flagrant T under NFHS rules?

Story here:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2...aign=editorial


I think that the offiiating shirts would have looked better if the colors and been reversed: Blue body with black sleeves.

MTD, Sr.

P.S. I did enjoy the oooooing and aaaahing by the announcers when the Green player came behind and clotheslined the fan.
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Last edited by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.; Thu Jan 08, 2015 at 02:40pm. Reason: Corrected spelling.
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Old Thu Jan 08, 2015, 11:27am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy341a View Post
10-3-8 says being charged with fighting. It never mentions fighting who. Would would charge green with a flagrant T under NFHS rules?

Story here:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2...aign=editorial

Unless there's a rule I'm not aware of, there's no way I'm giving green a tech here. He was protecting his team mate. You don't know what that person's intentions were when they ran onto the court.
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Old Thu Jan 08, 2015, 12:00pm
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Originally Posted by BryanV21 View Post
Unless there's a rule I'm not aware of, there's no way I'm giving green a tech here. He was protecting his team mate. You don't know what that person's intentions were when they ran onto the court.
I agree on the initial take down. But the actions by #9 at the 21 sec mark seem to be out of line, as the fan was being escorted from the area. Would anyone else consider a flagrant technical for #9's actions?
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Old Thu Jan 08, 2015, 12:10pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post

P.S. I did enjoy the oooooing and aaaahing by the announcers when the Green player came behind and close-lined the fan.
Surely, someone who began officiating before the invention of the electric dryer should know that it's clotheslined.
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Old Thu Jan 08, 2015, 02:10pm
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Originally Posted by griblets View Post
I agree on the initial take down. But the actions by #9 at the 21 sec mark seem to be out of line, as the fan was being escorted from the area. Would anyone else consider a flagrant technical for #9's actions?
I had stopped the video right before that part, as I figured it was over. I would certainly contemplate a tech, however I have to wonder if punishment for that action would fall under the school/conference rather than us officials.

Going after the fan like that seems to fall outside of our jurisdiction. If it was a player on player thing, then by all means he'd be t'd up and ejected. But player on fan... I don't know. I look forward to the responses.
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Old Thu Jan 08, 2015, 02:39pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by griblets View Post
Surely, someone who began officiating before the invention of the electric dryer should know that it's clotheslined.

I am sorry. I was typing fast to get the post done beause I had something else going at the same time. I will correct the spelling.

MTD, Sr.
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Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
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International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Ump. Assn.
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Old Thu Jan 08, 2015, 03:41pm
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when I see that word I think of the scene in Naked Gun when they clothesline a couple on the beach.

armed guards, heavy security. They must have been prepared for something to happen. That was pretty crazy. If that happened in HS, I think I'd eject the player who nailed the fan(even if it was deserved) The county probably would suspend him at least a few games. I'd eject 9 as well for making the situation worse.
I see it as a safety issue and within the jurisdiction of the game. I don't think you can leave no 9 in the game. But...do you give a T for this? Do you have the other team shoot fts? That doesn't seem fair. I'd want to be able to eject both players but not have the other team shoot the Tech fts.

Last edited by mutantducky; Thu Jan 08, 2015 at 03:43pm.
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Old Thu Jan 08, 2015, 04:35pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mutantducky View Post
when I see that word I think of the scene in Naked Gun when they clothesline a couple on the beach.

armed guards, heavy security. They must have been prepared for something to happen. That was pretty crazy. If that happened in HS, I think I'd eject the player who nailed the fan(even if it was deserved) The county probably would suspend him at least a few games. I'd eject 9 as well for making the situation worse.
I see it as a safety issue and within the jurisdiction of the game. I don't think you can leave no 9 in the game. But...do you give a T for this? Do you have the other team shoot fts? That doesn't seem fair. I'd want to be able to eject both players but not have the other team shoot the Tech fts.

Not surprising you would try to do what you think is fair, rather than what the rules allow/tell you to do.

Last edited by johnny d; Thu Jan 08, 2015 at 06:27pm.
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Old Thu Jan 08, 2015, 05:58pm
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Originally Posted by BryanV21 View Post
Going after the fan like that seems to fall outside of our jurisdiction. If it was a player on player thing, then by all means he'd be t'd up and ejected. But player on fan... I don't know. I look forward to the responses.
FWIW- The page linked in the OP indicates that two players were "ejected". FIBA vs NFHS rules, but like I said, FWIW.
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Old Fri Jan 09, 2015, 05:46am
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Originally Posted by BryanV21 View Post

Going after the fan like that seems to fall outside of our jurisdiction. If it was a player on player thing, then by all means he'd be t'd up and ejected. But player on fan... I don't know. I look forward to the responses.
You are clearly young and still a rather inexperienced official. You absolutely need to make the time to read the NFHS Case Book from cover to cover and all of the past NFHS interpretations posted in a thread on this website. From reading several of your comments on this forum, it is obvious that you have never made the effort to educate yourself as much as possible on the rulings which govern your avocation. That failure is a serious mistake.

If you would fully prepare before stepping on the court, you would be aware of rulings such as the following:

2008-09 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 9: Team members are leaving for the locker room at halftime when a fan taunts a member of the visiting team. The visiting team member immediately reacts, goes toward the fan and gets in a fight with him/her. RULING: The referee rules a flagrant technical foul on the visiting team member for fighting and he/she is ejected. Since he/she is a team member during intermission, an indirect technical foul is also charged to the head coach (loss of coaching box). The referee is also within his/her authority to assess a team technical foul for unsporting behavior on the spectator. If this occurs, the technical fouls are offsetting since they occur at the same time. The penalties are the same with the exception of bench personnel being ejected. If both technical fouls are assessed, each team begins the second half with one foul toward the team-foul count and play begins at the point of interruption, which is an alternating-possession throw-in to begin the third quarter. (10-1-8; 10-4-1g)

10.5.5 SITUATION B:
A spectator heckles Team A member, A9, while he/she is sitting on Team A's bench. A9 leaves the bench area and goes into the stands to confront the fan.
RULING: Team A's head coach is assessed a direct technical foul for permitting A9 to leave the bench area for an unauthorized reason. Team B is awarded two free throws and the ball for a division line throw-in. The Team A head coach has lost coaching-box privileges for the remainder of the game.

Last edited by Nevadaref; Fri Jan 09, 2015 at 06:01am.
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Old Fri Jan 09, 2015, 09:24am
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Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
The referee is also within his/her authority to assess a team technical foul for unsporting behavior on the spectator. If this occurs, the technical fouls are offsetting since they occur at the same time. The penalties are the same with the exception of bench personnel being ejected. If both technical fouls are assessed, each team begins the second half with one foul toward the team-foul count and play begins at the point of interruption, which is an alternating-possession throw-in to begin the third quarter. (10-1-8; 10-4-1g)
If the scenario in the OP ever happened during one of my games (knock on wood...) I think I would have to exercise this option. If it's a fan in the stands heckling, probably not, the player needs to get over it. But a fan who physically initiates an altercation is a little bit different scenario.

I don't want to be the guy on the forum who is always suggesting a forfeit, I know I brought that up in a recent thread, but I think it's a legitimate discussion for the sake of player safety here, or more likely suspending the game until another time. We all remember the "Malice at the Palace," and that game's final seconds were called off after the incident, and I think rightly so. Of course that was a 15 point game with only 45 seconds left, so a little bit different, but I'd have to be pretty certain that player safety was not an issue to continue this game at this time.
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Old Fri Jan 09, 2015, 09:29am
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Originally Posted by frezer11 View Post
If the scenario in the OP ever happened during one of my games (knock on wood...) I think I would have to exercise this option. If it's a fan in the stands heckling, probably not, the player needs to get over it. But a fan who physically initiates an altercation is a little bit different scenario.

I don't want to be the guy on the forum who is always suggesting a forfeit, I know I brought that up in a recent thread, but I think it's a legitimate discussion for the sake of player safety here, or more likely suspending the game until another time. We all remember the "Malice at the Palace," and that game's final seconds were called off after the incident, and I think rightly so. Of course that was a 15 point game with only 45 seconds left, so a little bit different, but I'd have to be pretty certain that player safety was not an issue to continue this game at this time.
As I take another look at the video, I think forfeit is likely out of the discussion as it really was only one fan, and fairly quickly controlled, so I probably would play on here, but I certainly wouldn't rule out the possibility of suspending the game.

Last edited by frezer11; Fri Jan 09, 2015 at 09:31am.
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Old Fri Jan 09, 2015, 12:37pm
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As a point of interest the 2014 FIBA Rules defines a Disqualifying foul as:

A disqualifying foul is any flagrant unsportsmanlike action by a player or team bench personnel. (38.1.1)

I did some digging on the EuroCup website and found that this incident occurred with less than 2 minutes of the 4Q in a 9 point game so in my mind a forfeit is out of the question in a professional level game.

I don't have a problem with the fan getting taken out by the player. The fan got exactly what he deserved for entering the court and pushing the player.

However, there must be a consequence for the players that have committed an infraction of the rules so I don't have an issue with the players who were Disqualified (FIBA lingo for ejected). The FIBA rule book charges the officials to uphold the integrity of the game. Acts of violence are definitely not part of basketball and the video clearly shows acts of violence. Kudos to the 3 officials who got it right and enforced the rule.

My $0.02
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Old Fri Jan 09, 2015, 12:47pm
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Eject both players as I said, shoot the Tech for what player 9 did as it was uncalled for and goes by what the rulebook says.
But back to when the fan goes onto the court. He pushes a player.
Let's say his teammate defends him, or pushes the fan and not the punch like it was here. Or maybe the fan pushes him back or throws a punch. If the player defends himself, or does a push to get him off the court do you still call a T in that situation? I don't know if calling a Tech in that situation would be the right thing to do.
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