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-   -   "Shooter Changes His Mind" Travel (Video) (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/98981-shooter-changes-his-mind-travel-video.html)

Raymond Mon Jan 05, 2015 09:50pm

"Shooter Changes His Mind" Travel (Video)
 
Wofford @ UT-C
12:35 of 2nd half
MASN (cable network)

A1 goes up to shoot, then changes mind and looks to A2, who has moved from his and doesn't know A1 was looking to him. A1 drops the ball behind A2.

Who says that is a travel right away?
Who doesn't? (me)

Where's a poll when you need one. :D

BTW, after the ball hits the floor, B1 touches ball first just before A1 does. Play is no-called and B1 ended up with possession.

just another ref Mon Jan 05, 2015 10:07pm

I see this the same as intentional grounding. If there is (was) a player "in the vicinity", no violation. If this player is all alone with the defender and obviously drops the ball because he is avoiding a blocked shot, I have an immediate violation.

crosscountry55 Mon Jan 05, 2015 10:43pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 948841)
I see this the same as intentional grounding. If there is (was) a player "in the vicinity", no violation. If this player is all alone with the defender and obviously drops the ball because he is avoiding a blocked shot, I have an immediate violation.

I like that analogy. If there's any chance whatsoever that the action could be construed as a pass (no matter how ugly), then in my opinion the player gets the benefit of the doubt. Of course he then can't be the first to touch it if he had already ended a dribble (9-5-3).

If, however, you're 100% sure he was avoiding something (blocked shot or travel) and the ball goes more or less straight down toward the floor, then I have a travel (for releasing the ball on a dribble after the pivot foot has been lifted).

Judgment call.

Raymond Mon Jan 05, 2015 11:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 948850)
I like that analogy. If there's any chance whatsoever that the action could be construed as a pass (no matter how ugly), then in my opinion the player gets the benefit of the doubt. Of course he then can't be the first to touch it if he had already ended a dribble (9-5-3).
....

He can't be the first to touch regardless, if he jumped prior to releasing the ball.

crosscountry55 Mon Jan 05, 2015 11:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 948854)
He can't be the first to touch regardless, if he jumped prior to releasing the ball.

Suppose I receive the ball and don't begin a dribble. Then I jump up for a high pass to a teammate, but the teammate doesn't see it coming and clears out. I race over to the ball and start dribbling it. Not a violation, right?

So how is it any different if I receive a pass, go up for a shot, realize it isn't going to work, and "pass" the ball. If I hadn't dribbled in the first place, can't I now go to the ball and dribble it?

BillyMac Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:10am

Travelin' Man (Lynyrd Skynyrd, 1976) ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 948855)
Suppose I receive the ball and don't begin a dribble. Then I jump up for a high pass to a teammate, but the teammate doesn't see it coming and clears out. I race over to the ball and start dribbling it. Not a violation, right?

Wrong. Player's pivot foot left the floor before he released the ball for the dribble. Traveling.

BillyMac Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:12am

Who You Gonna Call ???
 
https://c1.staticflickr.com/7/6230/6...473e048e_m.jpg

When an airborne player keeps control of an attempted shot that is blocked and is unable to release the ball and returns to the floor with it, that player has not traveled; it is a held ball. If, in this situation, the shooter loses control of the ball because of the block, then this is simply a blocked shot and play continues. If, in this situation, the defender simply touches the ball, and the airborne shooter returns to the floor holding the ball, it’s a traveling violation. When an airborne player tries for goal, sees that the try will be blocked, purposely drops the ball, and picks up the ball after it hits the floor, that player has traveled by starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor.

just another ref Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:15am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 948859)
https://c1.staticflickr.com/7/6230/6...473e048e_m.jpg

When an airborne player keeps control of an attempted shot that is blocked and is unable to release the ball and returns to the floor with it, that player has not traveled; it is a held ball. If, in this situation, the shooter loses control of the ball because of the block, then this is simply a blocked shot and play continues. If, in this situation, the defender simply touches the ball, and the airborne shooter returns to the floor holding the ball, it’s a traveling violation. When an airborne player tries for goal, sees that the try will be blocked, purposely drops the ball, and picks up the ball after it hits the floor, that player has traveled by starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor.



As stated above, this part may not be necessary to have a violation.

BillyMac Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:27am

Madame Zelda, High School Basketball Official Extraordinaire ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 948860)
As stated above, this part may not be necessary to have a violation.

When officials are able to read minds, and we know that this is definitely the start of a dribble, and definitely not the start of a pass, then I would agree with you. Right now, it's worded to fit all rules pertaining to the limitations of moving one's pivot foot, assuming that the official lacks the ability to read minds, or predict the future.

just another ref Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:30am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 948861)
When officials are able to read minds, and we know that this is definitely the start of a dribble, and definitely not the start of a pass, then I would agree with you. Right now, it's worded to fit all rules pertaining to the limitations of moving one's pivot foot.

No need to read minds, it's judgment. A pass is throwing, pushing, or batting the ball to another player. If there is no other player in the picture, there is no pass. If you don't want to call the violation, you could just call it a really bad shot.

BillyMac Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:44am

Got A Hot Date After The Game ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 948862)
No need to read minds, it's judgment. A pass is throwing, pushing, or batting the ball to another player. If there is no other player in the picture, there is no pass. If you don't want to call the violation, you could just call it a really bad shot.

There are four teammates (as well as five opponents, and the player himself) on a 4200 square foot court. I'm waiting until I see who next touches the ball. Why rush to judgment?

just another ref Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:47am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 948864)
There are four teammates (as well as five opponents, and the player himself) on a 4200 square foot court. I'm waiting until I see who next touches the ball. Why rush to judgment?

If he doesn't have the presence of mind to at least push it in the general direction of a teammate who is in the general vicinity, I'm not bailing him out.

BillyMac Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:55am

Subsequent Seconds ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 948865)
If he doesn't have the presence of mind to at least push it in the general direction of a teammate who is in the general vicinity, I'm not bailing him out.

Ever hear of a lead bounce pass? Just kidding.

We're going to have to agree to disagree. I'm not sounding my whistle for a travel as soon as he releases the ball, because a lot of things can happen in the subsequent seconds that make this a legal play, including a steal by the defense. The only thing that would make it illegal, is if he's the first to touch the ball after the release. Only then is it a travel, for lifting the pivot foot before the ball is released to start a dribble.

just another ref Tue Jan 06, 2015 01:11am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 948868)
Ever hear of a lead bounce pass? Just kidding.

We're going to have to agree to disagree. I'm not sounding my whistle for a travel as soon as he releases the ball, because a lot of things can happen in the subsequent seconds that make this a legal play, including a steal by the defense. The only thing that would make it illegal, is if he's the first to touch the ball after the release. Only then is it a travel, for lifting the pivot foot before the ball is released to start a dribble.

A subsequent touch is not necessary to define a dribble.

BillyMac Tue Jan 06, 2015 01:20am

Again, What's The Rush ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 948878)
A subsequent touch is not necessary to define a dribble.

By the literal rule definition (dribble), I agree. But this physical act can also be the start of a pass (by rule, and by definition). After the ball is released from the ball handler's hand, a lot of other things can happen besides the continuation of said dribble (bounce pass to teammate, steal by defense, ball contacts boundary line, etc.). Why make a guess here, even an educated guess (good judgment based on experience), when by allowing the play to develop (something that all good officials, including you, will often do in many situations throughout the game), for a fraction of a second, will take away any guesswork on the part of the official? When I officiate, I hate making guesses (block/charge, foul/incidental, carrying, out of bounds, etc.). If I'm guessing, I'm probably not calling something. I like to be as sure as I can possibly be.

just another ref Tue Jan 06, 2015 01:33am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 948883)
By the literal rule definition (dribble), I agree. But this physical act can also be the start of a pass (by rule, and by definition). After the ball is released from the ball handler's hand, a lot of other things can happen besides the continuation of said dribble (bounce pass to teammate, steal by defense, ball contacts boundary line, etc.). Why make a guess here, even an educated guess (good judgment based on experience), when by allowing the play to develop (something that all good officials, including you, will often do in many situations throughout the game), for a fraction of a second, will take away any guesswork on the part of the official? When I officiate, I hate making guesses (block/charge, foul/incidental, carrying, out of bounds, etc.). If I'm guessing, I'm probably not calling something.

Intent and purpose of the rule comes into play. If a player jumps he is not allowed to return to the floor before releasing the ball on a pass or dribble. If there is a teammate anywhere around and I can imagine that his release is directed toward that teammate, fine, I give him the benefit of the doubt. On the other hand, if there is no teammate and he simply drops the ball straight to the floor, no way can I consider this a pass. One might say this is a moot point, that if there is no teammate in the picture, either the defender will get the ball or the shooter will touch it. But other things can also happen. If the defender swipes at the ball at this point and knocks it out of bounds at this point, this would unfairly penalize the defense who did his job perfectly and created a turnover.

BillyMac Tue Jan 06, 2015 01:46am

Like Frank Sinatra, My Way ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 948885)
Intent and purpose of the rule comes into play. If a player jumps he is not allowed to return to the floor before releasing the ball on a pass or dribble. If there is a teammate anywhere around and I can imagine that his release is directed toward that teammate, fine, I give him the benefit of the doubt. On the other hand, if there is no teammate and he simply drops the ball straight to the floor, no way can I consider this a pass. One might say this is a moot point, that if there is no teammate in the picture, either the defender will get the ball or the shooter will touch it. But other things can also happen. If the defender swipes at the ball at this point and knocks it out of bounds at this point, this would unfairly penalize the defense who did his job perfectly and created a turnover.

I get your point, but I'm still doing it my way. I'm sometimes forced to do it (not ready for a train wreck), but I still hate guessing, and I'm not guessing here. It may take me an extra split second, but, at least, to me, it's worth it to get it right.

BigCat Tue Jan 06, 2015 10:17am

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 948878)
A subsequent touch is not necessary to define a dribble.

take a look at 4.15.4 C, 9.5 (these two basically same play) and 4.44.3 A.

they all seem to stand for the proposition that the player has to be the first to touch the ball for there to be a violation.
the 4.15.4 play is the one where A1 ends dribble and then throws it off his opponents backboard or an official, immediately recovers ball. wording says throwing ball off backboard or official is start of another dribble, PROVIDED A1 is the first to touch it after striking board or official.

4.44.3 play deals with the player who jumps to shoot, ball is touched by B but not knocked loose or out of his hand. shooter then drops ball to floor and is first to touch it--violation. clearly isn't trying to pass to another player in that play either. still violation is being first to touch it. the rules definitions/case plays make us wait to see what happens next before we are able to characterize what the drop of the ball actually is…if player who dropped it with no pivot foot is first to touch it--illegal dribble. if another player touches it first--pass. if the ball just sits there with no one touching --Limbo

i hear what your saying but i think rules require the touch.

Adam Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:25pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 948850)
I like that analogy. If there's any chance whatsoever that the action could be construed as a pass (no matter how ugly), then in my opinion the player gets the benefit of the doubt. Of course he then can't be the first to touch it if he had already ended a dribble (9-5-3).
If, however, you're 100% sure he was avoiding something (blocked shot or travel) and the ball goes more or less straight down toward the floor, then I have a travel (for releasing the ball on a dribble after the pivot foot has been lifted).

Judgment call.

While I'm probably waiting to see who touches it first every time, I don't really disagree with much here except for the red. I'm not sure how that's relevant.

Adam Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 948878)
A subsequent touch is not necessary to define a dribble.

No, but it will be required before I can identify one. :)

billyu2 Tue Jan 06, 2015 04:31pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigCat (Post 948927)
take a look at 4.15.4 C, 9.5 (these two basically same play) and 4.44.3 A.

they all seem to stand for the proposition that the player has to be the first to touch the ball for there to be a violation.
the 4.15.4 play is the one where A1 ends dribble and then throws it off his opponents backboard or an official, immediately recovers ball. wording says throwing ball off backboard or official is start of another dribble, PROVIDED A1 is the first to touch it after striking board or official.

4.44.3 play deals with the player who jumps to shoot, ball is touched by B but not knocked loose or out of his hand. shooter then drops ball to floor and is first to touch it--violation. clearly isn't trying to pass to another player in that play either. still violation is being first to touch it. the rules definitions/case plays make us wait to see what happens next before we are able to characterize what the drop of the ball actually is…if player who dropped it with no pivot foot is first to touch it--illegal dribble. if another player touches it first--pass. if the ball just sits there with no one touching --Limbo

i hear what your saying but i think rules require the touch.

I agree. Another good example is 7.1.1D A1 saves the ball from going OB by catching and "tossing" it back to the court. At this point we apparently should not interpret that "toss" as a dribble or a pass. But once A1 recovers the tossed ball it became the start of the dribble. Safe to say if a teammate recovered the tossed ball it would have been a pass .
IOW: "It ain't what it is until it is what it ain't."

BillyMac Tue Jan 06, 2015 05:28pm

Let's Go To The Videotape ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BigCat (Post 948927)
take a look at 4.15.4 C, 9.5 (these two basically same play) and 4.44.3 A.

I'm glad that the cavalry finally showed up. I thought I was a goner. What took you guys so long? Rescuing a damsel in distress tied to a train track?

4.15.4 SITUATION C: After dribbling and coming to a stop, A1 throws the ball:
(a) against the opponent’s backboard and catches the rebound; (b) against an
official, immediately recovers the ball and dribbles again; or (c) against his/her
own backboard in an attempt to score (try), catches the rebound and dribbles
again. RULING: A1 has violated in both (a) and (b). Throwing the ball against the
opponent’s backboard or an official constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is
first to touch the ball after it strikes the official or the board. In (c), the action is
legal. Once the ball is released on the try, there is no player or team control, therefore,
A1 can recover the rebound and begin a dribble.

9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the
ball against: (a) his/her own backboard; (b) the opponent’s backboard; or (c) an
official and catches the ball after each. RULING: Legal in (a); a team’s own backboard
is considered part of that team’s “equipment” and may be used. In (b) and
(c), A1 has violated; throwing the ball against an opponent’s backboard or an official
constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it
strikes the official or the board. (4-4-5; 4-15-1, 2; Fundamental 19)

4.44.3 SITUATION A: A1 jumps to try for goal. B1 also jumps and: (a) slaps the
ball out of A1’s hands; (b) touches the ball but does not prevent A1 from releasing
the ball; (c) touches the ball and A1 returns to the floor holding the ball; or
(d) touches the ball and A1 drops it to the floor and touches it first after it
bounces. RULING: In (a) and (b), the ball remains live. In (c), a traveling violation.
In (d), a violation for starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor. Since
the touching did not prevent the pass or try in (b), (c) and (d), the ball remains
live and subsequent action is covered by rules which apply to the situation.

BillyMac Tue Jan 06, 2015 05:33pm

Bartlett's Familiar Quotations ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by billyu2 (Post 948981)
"It ain't what it is until it is what it ain't."

Confucius?

youngump Tue Jan 06, 2015 05:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 948990)
9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the
ball against: or (c) an
official and catches the ball after each. RULING: Legal in (a); a team’s own backboard
is considered part of that team’s “equipment” and may be used. In (b) and
(c), A1 has violated; throwing the ball against an opponent’s backboard or an official
constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it
strikes the official or the board. (4-4-5; 4-15-1, 2; Fundamental 19)

Seriously? :eek: You can dribble off the officials? That's a thing? How did I not know this when I was playing. Any of you ever had it happen?

BillyMac Tue Jan 06, 2015 05:57pm

There's No Official In TEAM ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by youngump (Post 948995)
You can dribble off the officials? Any of you ever had it happen?

I've never had anyone dribble off of me, but I have set several outstanding screens in my thirty-four years of officiating.

billyu2 Tue Jan 06, 2015 07:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 948992)
Confucius?

Either him or maybe Yogi Berra.

crosscountry55 Tue Jan 06, 2015 11:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 948868)
Ever hear of a lead bounce pass? Just kidding.

We're going to have to agree to disagree. I'm not sounding my whistle for a travel as soon as he releases the ball, because a lot of things can happen in the subsequent seconds that make this a legal play, including a steal by the defense. The only thing that would make it illegal, is if he's the first to touch the ball after the release. Only then is it a travel, for lifting the pivot foot before the ball is released to start a dribble.

I agree this is getting really deep in the weeds, but I like the theoretical aspect.

The 4-31 definition of a pass being "to another player," was eye opening. (Definitions are so helpful yet so easily overlooked.) So based on my scenario earlier of a player who had not dribbled, jumped but then bailed on the try and passed, only to have no teammate there and go get the ball, I now agree that's a travel because if it wasn't a pass, what else can the act constitute other than a dribble (assuming it isn't an obvious fumble)?

BillyMac Wed Jan 07, 2015 07:11am

Of Course, I'm Never On The Wrong Side ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 949022)
I like the theoretical aspect.

I love the challenge, and want the one, true, answer, if possible, even when I'm on the wrong side of the debate.

BillyMac Wed Jan 07, 2015 07:15am

Close, But No Cigar ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 949022)
... player who had not dribbled, jumped but then bailed on the try and passed, only to have no teammate there and go get the ball, I now agree that's a travel because if it wasn't a pass, what else can the act constitute other than a dribble

Right answer. Borderline wrong reason. It has nothing to do with a pass, other than if it had been a "true" pass, it would have been legal. It's a travel because he lifted his pivot foot before he started, what turned out to be, his dribble. One could explain this call without ever using the word pass.

crosscountry55 Wed Jan 07, 2015 03:16pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 949049)
Right answer. Borderline wrong reason. It has nothing to do with a pass, other than if it had been a "true" pass, it would have been legal. It's a travel because he lifted his pivot foot before he started, what turned out to be, his dribble. One could explain this call without ever using the word pass.

I'm good with that. Fully agree.

Raymond Sun Jan 18, 2015 09:58am

Bump for APG

APG Sun Jan 18, 2015 04:43pm

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/lY_ZNuqrUEU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

JRutledge Sun Jan 18, 2015 04:47pm

This looks like a blocked shot on some level. It does look like he was trying to adjust his shot and probably changed his mind, but I think the defender touched the ball which I would have no violation in that case. At least that is by the angle we are seeing.

Peace

just another ref Sun Jan 18, 2015 06:19pm

Violation. Even if he did touch the ball, and it's hard to say from this angle, the touch definitely didn't prevent the release.

Raymond Sun Jan 18, 2015 07:29pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 950934)
Violation. Even if he did touch the ball, and it's hard to say from this angle, the touch definitely didn't prevent the release.

I thought you wouldn't call a violation if another teammate was in the area?

Camron Rust Sun Jan 18, 2015 07:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 950934)
Violation. Even if he did touch the ball, and it's hard to say from this angle, the touch definitely didn't prevent the release.

Agree...touch is not enough to make it legal, the touch has to prevent the release....as in a held ball. You don't call a held ball just because opposing teams touch the ball at the same time.

JRutledge Sun Jan 18, 2015 07:41pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 950953)
Agree...touch is not enough to make it legal, the touch has to prevent the release....as in a held ball. You don't call a held ball just because opposing teams touch the ball at the same time.

NCAA rules are different. They have to come back to the floor with the ball unlike the NF rule to have a held ball.

Again, I see this as a blocked shot more than anything. It does look like the shooter tried to change something mid-air but it appears the ball was still kind of knocked out of his hand. If I had any doubt, that is what I would go with an not call a violation. But I am willing to go with a violation if I see a better angle or closer slow-motion view.

Peace

potato Sun Jan 18, 2015 07:43pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 948858)
Wrong. Player's pivot foot left the floor before he released the ball for the dribble. Traveling.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 948836)
Wofford @ UT-C
12:35 of 2nd half
MASN (cable network)

A1 goes up to shoot, then changes mind and looks to A2, who has moved from his and doesn't know A1 was looking to him. A1 drops the ball behind A2.

Who says that is a travel right away?
Who doesn't? (me)

Where's a poll when you need one. :D

BTW, after the ball hits the floor, B1 touches ball first just before A1 does. Play is no-called and B1 ended up with possession.

the example given is not detailed enough, did A1 dropped the ball while still in the air? because what i see the ball left A1 before he landed, whether it was a shot/block/pass/drop doesn't matter.

if A1 becomes the 1st person to touch the ball he intentionally dropped or passed then it's a violation.

but then again after watching the video clearly it's a violation. It was no longer a blocked shot when the shooter decides to lob the ball out, apparently he was the 1st player to touch the ball despite not able to get possession, it was not a fumble so he's not allowed to be the 1st player to touch the ball again, which he intentionally did. Traveling? Double dribble?

APG Sun Jan 18, 2015 07:44pm

I literally posted a clip of the play in question potato

just another ref Sun Jan 18, 2015 08:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 950951)
I thought you wouldn't call a violation of another teammate was in the area?


I wouldn't call it immediately if a teammate was in the area. But he was the first to touch, which seals the deal no matter what.

Nevadaref Sun Jan 18, 2015 08:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigCat (Post 948927)
i hear what your saying but i think rules require the touch.

Nope. We've had this conversation on the forum several times. The rule for a dribble does not require the ball to be touched after pushing it to the floor.

4.15.4 SITUATION A:

As dribbler A1 attempts to change directions to avoid guard B1, he/she allows the ball to come to rest in one hand in bringing the ball from the right to the left side of the body. A1 pushes the ball to the floor in an attempt to continue the dribble.

RULING: When A1 palmed/carried the ball, the dribble ended and when he/she pushed the ball to the floor a violation occurred. (9-5)

potato Sun Jan 18, 2015 09:20pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 950960)
I wouldn't call it immediately if a teammate was in the area. But he was the first to touch, which seals the deal no matter what.

but not on the 1st page. i have edited it after seeing the video and added comments before you posted though...

potato Sun Jan 18, 2015 09:26pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 950961)
RULING: When A1 palmed/carried the ball, the dribble ended and when he/she pushed the ball to the floor a violation occurred. (9-5)

Well question comes down to how do you determine if it's a Dribble, Pass, Dropped ball & how often would the refs treat such scenarios as a start of a dribble unless the player went & touch/bounce the ball again after ended his dribble. But of course due to the rules being written in black & white, it's technically possible to call any missed bounce pass as a start of a "dribble".

Wouldn't you consider how the play goes & how A1 reacts after he dropped the ball on the floor, and immediately calls for a double dribble the moment the ball bounces on the floor, in this case?

johnsonboys03 Mon Jan 19, 2015 12:50am

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 948878)
A subsequent touch is not necessary to define a dribble.

I agree. What is the definition of a dribble? Dropping the ball behind a team ate would be a pass in my book, not a dribble. However I would like to see the play to make final ruling.

just another ref Mon Jan 19, 2015 01:12am

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnsonboys03 (Post 951034)
I agree. What is the definition of a dribble? Dropping the ball behind a team ate would be a pass in my book, not a dribble. However I would like to see the play to make final ruling.


The definition of a dribble is to push the ball to the floor, one or more times. If the ball is not directed toward another player, I see it as a dribble, whether it is touched again or not.

potato Mon Jan 19, 2015 01:47am

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 951036)
The definition of a dribble is to push the ball to the floor, one or more times. If the ball is not directed toward another player, I see it as a dribble, whether it is touched again or not.

even if the player intended to pass but due to the situation can only bounce a pass not directed toward another teammate? have anyone actually seen such calls? i mean if it did i believe everyone except the ref who whistled it would be in ?????? mode.

just another ref Mon Jan 19, 2015 01:54am

Quote:

Originally Posted by potato (Post 951041)
even if the player intended to pass but due to the situation can only bounce a pass not directed toward another teammate? have anyone actually seen such calls? i mean if it did i believe everyone except the ref who whistled it would be in ?????? mode.


I don't mean a bad pass. I mean a player who end a dribble, gives a head fake, then forgets and pushes the ball straight to the floor and heads to the basket. I'm talking about a player who drops the ball straight to the floor to avoid having his shot blocked. As always, judgment is involved.

Raymond Mon Jan 19, 2015 02:07am

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnsonboys03 (Post 951034)
I agree. What is the definition of a dribble? Dropping the ball behind a team ate would be a pass in my book, not a dribble. However I would like to see the play to make final ruling.

The video is posted above.

Raymond Mon Jan 19, 2015 02:08am

Quote:

Originally Posted by potato (Post 950956)
the example given is not detailed enough, did A1 dropped the ball while still in the air? because what i see the ball left A1 before he landed, whether it was a shot/block/pass/drop doesn't matter.

if A1 becomes the 1st person to touch the ball he intentionally dropped or passed then it's a violation.

but then again after watching the video clearly it's a violation. It was no longer a blocked shot when the shooter decides to lob the ball out, apparently he was the 1st player to touch the ball despite not able to get possession, it was not a fumble so he's not allowed to be the 1st player to touch the ball again, which he intentionally did. Traveling? Double dribble?

What additional details did you need?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 948836)
A1 goes up to shoot, then changes mind and looks to A2, who has moved from his and doesn't know A1 was looking to him. A1 drops the ball behind A2.
...
BTW, after the ball hits the floor, B1 touches ball first just before A1 does. Play is no-called and B1 ended up with possession.


Raymond Mon Jan 19, 2015 02:11am

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 950960)
I wouldn't call it immediately if a teammate was in the area. But he was the first to touch, which seals the deal no matter what.

He wasn't the first to touch. The defender got his hand underneath and got to the ball first.

Obviously if A1 is the first to touch, it's a travel.

potato Mon Jan 19, 2015 04:17am

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 951045)
I don't mean a bad pass. I mean a player who end a dribble, gives a head fake, then forgets and pushes the ball straight to the floor and heads to the basket. I'm talking about a player who drops the ball straight to the floor to avoid having his shot blocked. As always, judgment is involved.

but previously you mentioned what happens after the player "drops" the ball doesn't really matter it can still be treated as a start of a new dribble when the ball bounces the floor, whether or not the same player touches the ball after the bounce, the case you are referring to is clearly a double dribble. but we were talking about player getting called for double dribble just by dropping/bouncing the ball on the ground without touching the ball after the bounce.

potato Mon Jan 19, 2015 04:18am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 951056)
He wasn't the first to touch. The defender got his hand underneath and got to the ball first.

Obviously if A1 is the first to touch, it's a travel.

isn't it a double dribble? by dropping the ball and being the 1st touch the ball after the drop.

potato Mon Jan 19, 2015 04:27am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 951053)
What additional details did you need?

well the written story ended with A1 dropping the ball, the video clearly shows more after the drop...

Pantherdreams Mon Jan 19, 2015 09:45am

Doesn't a patient whistle solve most of this. If he drops it and teammate collects it: pass. If he drops it and the other team recovers it: turnover we're still playing. If he drops it and then tries to gather it again you could apply the travel or double dribble depending on your interp of his actions. I understand that we want an absolute she can or can't do x, but in these situations isn't it just as effective to hold off on your whistle and let the play sort itself out with no debate about intent vs result.

Raymond Mon Jan 19, 2015 10:29am

Quote:

Originally Posted by potato (Post 951079)
well the written story ended with A1 dropping the ball, the video clearly shows more after the drop.

You need to go back and read again.

Raymond Mon Jan 19, 2015 10:31am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams (Post 951097)
Doesn't a patient whistle solve most of this. If he drops it and teammate collects it: pass. If he drops it and the other team recovers it: turnover we're still playing. If he drops it and then tries to gather it again you could apply the travel or double dribble depending on your interp of his actions. I understand that we want an absolute she can or can't do x, but in these situations isn't it just as effective to hold off on your whistle and let the play sort itself out with no debate about intent vs result.

That's how I look at it.

just another ref Mon Jan 19, 2015 03:16pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 951056)
The defender got his hand underneath and got to the ball first.

I missed it.

just another ref Mon Jan 19, 2015 03:27pm

Here's the deal, for those who haven't heard it before. As cited earlier by Nevada, when a dribble is illegal it occurs when the ball is pushed to the floor.

4.15.4 SITUATION A:

As dribbler A1 attempts to change directions to avoid guard B1, he/she allows the ball to come to rest in one hand in bringing the ball from the right to the left side of the body. A1 pushes the ball to the floor in an attempt to continue the dribble.

RULING: When A1 palmed/carried the ball, the dribble ended and when he/she pushed the ball to the floor a violation occurred. (9-5)


People say you can't judge intent. You can judge intent. We do it all the time on fouls. Two shots? Worst case scenario is this. A1 goes up to shoot, sees his shot will be blocked and drops the ball straight to the floor. He then assumes an aggressive stance and tries to screen the defender away from the ball while yelling to his teammate: "Hey, A2! Come get the ball. I can't touch it!" B1 then takes a swipe at the ball and knocks it out of bounds. If you didn't call the violation immediately, you give the ball back to Team A. I think this is wrong.

BillyMac Mon Jan 19, 2015 04:41pm

Push It (Salt-N-Pepa, 1986) ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 951143)
... when a dribble is illegal it occurs when the ball is pushed to the floor.

But one can also start a legal bounce pass when "the ball is pushed to the floor".

just another ref Mon Jan 19, 2015 07:43pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 951160)
But one can also start a legal bounce pass when "the ball is pushed to the floor".

A try which touches nothing may also hit the floor and the player may legally go and pick it up, but I have to judge that it was a try. If a player pushes/drops/throws the ball straight to the floor and there is no teammate there to retrieve the ball immediately, this is not a pass or a try. If it was not a fumble, then by default it is a dribble and is accompanied by the resulting consequences.

BillyMac Mon Jan 19, 2015 08:16pm

Pass Or Dribble ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 951178)
... If a player pushes/drops/throws the ball straight to the floor and there is no teammate there to retrieve the ball immediately, this is not a pass or a try. If it was not a fumble, then by default it is a dribble and is accompanied by the resulting consequences.

So, if a ball handler picks up his dribble, expecting a teammate to cut right, makes a bounce pass to the right, but the teammate cuts left instead of right, and the pass is bounced to nobody, under those conditions you can determine if it was a pass, or a dibble?

just another ref Mon Jan 19, 2015 08:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 951183)
So, if a ball handler picks up his dribble, expecting a teammate to cut right, makes a bounce pass to the right, but the teammate cuts left instead of right, and the pass is bounced to nobody, under those conditions you can determine if it was a pass, or a dibble?

Yes

potato Mon Jan 19, 2015 09:32pm

your narration make it's easy to tell it's a pass since you used the word pass, try use "dropped" instead.

someone mention it's possible to judge intent, it is, say if a person is doing a standard shooting form that 90% players do, you can judge the move as a try, if someone drops the ball like 90% players when they starts a dribble, you can say it's a dribble even if the person didn't touch the ball after the bounce, if a person merely drops the ball on the floor like this case and you want to call it a double dribble, well you need some statistic to back up your judgement on the dribbling intent.

Camron Rust Mon Jan 19, 2015 11:40pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 951183)
So, if a ball handler picks up his dribble, expecting a teammate to cut right, makes a bounce pass to the right, but the teammate cuts left instead of right, and the pass is bounced to nobody, under those conditions you can determine if it was a pass, or a dibble?

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 951184)
Yes

Agree. It really isn't that hard.

Rob1968 Tue Jan 20, 2015 02:28am

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 951143)
Here's the deal, for those who haven't heard it before. As cited earlier by Nevada, when a dribble is illegal it occurs when the ball is pushed to the floor.

4.15.4 SITUATION A:

As dribbler A1 attempts to change directions to avoid guard B1, he/she allows the ball to come to rest in one hand in bringing the ball from the right to the left side of the body. A1 pushes the ball to the floor in an attempt to continue the dribble.

RULING: When A1 palmed/carried the ball, the dribble ended and when he/she pushed the ball to the floor a violation occurred. (9-5)


People say you can't judge intent. You can judge intent. We do it all the time on fouls. Two shots? Worst case scenario is this. A1 goes up to shoot, sees his shot will be blocked and drops the ball straight to the floor. He then assumes an aggressive stance and tries to screen the defender away from the ball while yelling to his teammate: "Hey, A2! Come get the ball. I can't touch it!" B1 then takes a swipe at the ball and knocks it out of bounds. If you didn't call the violation immediately, you give the ball back to Team A. I think this is wrong.

This debate comes up about every 4 to 6 months. It's never solved by consensus, because the NFHS has given both sides a citation that supports opposing points of view:

Case Book 9.5: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the ball against: (a) his/her own backboard; (b) the opponent's backboard; or (c) an official and catches the ball after each. RULING: Legal in (A); a team's own backboard is considered part of the team's "equipment" and may be used. In (b) and (c), A1 has violated; throwing the ball against an opponent's backboard or an official constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it strikes the official or the board. (4-4-5; 4-15-1, 2; Fundamental 19) (italics added)

(And, Fundamental 19 dispells any argument that the ball touching the backboard is inherently different from touching the floor.)

just another ref Tue Jan 20, 2015 03:27am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob1968 (Post 951224)
This debate comes up about every 4 to 6 months. It's never solved by consensus, because the NFHS has given both sides a citation that supports opposing points of view:

Case Book 9.5: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the ball against: (a) his/her own backboard; (b) the opponent's backboard; or (c) an official and catches the ball after each. RULING: Legal in (A); a team's own backboard is considered part of the team's "equipment" and may be used. In (b) and (c), A1 has violated; throwing the ball against an opponent's backboard or an official constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it strikes the official or the board. (4-4-5; 4-15-1, 2; Fundamental 19) (italics added)

(And, Fundamental 19 dispells any argument that the ball touching the backboard is inherently different from touching the floor.)

In the plays above it is clear that the intent of the ballhandler was not to dribble. A pass is when the ball is directed to another player. If the thrower is first to touch, the other player is eliminated from the play, creating the violation. Throwing the ball against the opponent's backboard is a unique situation. It was either done by accident or in a misguided attempt to circumvent the rule.

In the case of the player who throws/drops the ball straight to the floor, often inches from his own foot, usually there is not another player to consider in the play. Therefore, in my opinion, it is an immediate violation.

potato Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:13am

There's alot of ways you can see it if you really want to judge the play immediately after the player dropped the ball, in this case, he dropped the ball not in a way a player would normally start a dribble, the player might have "fumbled" and dropped the ball, by calling it double dribble instead of waiting to see how the play goes, sounds a bit unforgiving. Because players normally don't drop the ball to start a dribble, they bounce it.

Kansas Ref Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:40am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 948859)
https://c1.staticflickr.com/7/6230/6...473e048e_m.jpg

{sit #1 When an airborne player keeps control of an attempted shot that is blocked and is unable to release the ball and returns to the floor with it, that player has not traveled; it is a held ball. COLOR="Blue"]<sit#2>, [/COLOR][/COLOR]in this situation, the shooter loses control of the ball because of the block, then this is simply a blocked shot and play continues. {sit#3> If, in this situation, the defender simply touches the ball, and the airborne shooter returns to the floor holding the ball, it’s a traveling violation. {sit#4> When an airborne player tries for goal, sees that the try will be blocked, purposely drops the ball, and picks up the ball after it hits the floor, that player has traveled by starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor.

*well stated!
I see situation #1: at least twice per game.
I see situation #2: at least 3 to 4 times per game.
I see situation#3: perhaps 1 or 2 times per season.
I have never seen situation#4, neither while officiating nor while observing a game.

Rob1968 Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:57am

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 951225)
In the plays above it is clear that the intent of the ballhandler was not to dribble. A pass is when the ball is directed to another player. If the thrower is first to touch, the other player is eliminated from the play, creating the violation. Throwing the ball against the opponent's backboard is a unique situation. It was either done by accident or in a misguided attempt to circumvent the rule.

In the case of the player who throws/drops the ball straight to the floor, often inches from his own foot, usually there is not another player to consider in the play. Therefore, in my opinion, it is an immediate violation.

Case Book play 9.5, to which I referred, cites Fundamental 19: "A ball which touches the front face or edges of the backboard is treated the same as touching the floor inbounds, except that when the ball touches the thrower's backboard, it does not constitute a part of a dribble." (italics added) This statement indicates that the precedence is "the ball touching the floor inbounds." Thus, any actions directly linked to "the ball touching the floor inbounds" that would constitute a legal/illegal dribble must be inherent in any actions related thereto, with exceptions as noted.

Case Book play 4.15.4 SITUATION A ignores the statement in Fundamental 19. And seems to me to be another hasty inerpretation of the dribble/illegal dribble rule.

That Case Book play is followed by 4.15.4 SITUATION C, which again uses the statement ". . . provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it strikes the official or the board." (italiccs added) This is consistent with Fundamental 19, and again leads one to believe that 4.15.4 A, is a mis-statement of the intent.

Perhaps the crux of the matter is one's understanding of the statement in 4-15-1 DRIBBLE . . . "A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s) or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times." (italics added) and its relation to 4-15-3 which defines the start of a dribble, and 4-15-4, which defines the end of a dribble.
In one train of thought, the start of the dribble constitutes a (complete)dribble, thus the immediate ruling that such action is illegal, if/when it follows the end of a previous dribble. However, by applying the definition of the end of a dribble, one is led to understand that a dribble must have a beginning and an end, to meet the definition of a (complete) dribble, and only then can a ruling of a legal/illegal dribble be effected.
In that second train of thought, the " . . . pushing, throwing or batting (of) the ball to the floor before the pivot foot is lifted" as stated in 4-15-3 "may" be the start of a dribble, but that action can only be considered a (complete) dribble when and if the dribble is ended, as in 4-15-4. (italics added)
And that second train of thought leads one to the conclusion, as afore-stated, that when a legal dribble has ended, a subsequent ". . . pushing, throwing or batting (of) the ball to the floor, (or other surface of the playing apparatus, with exceptions noted) must be followed by ". . . the player being the first to touch the ball, thereafter" for that action to be considered a (complete) and therefore second, and thus an illegal dribble.

BillyMac Tue Jan 20, 2015 04:34pm

That's My Story And I'm (Probably) Sticking To It ...
 
9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he throws the ball against ... the opponent’s backboard ... and catches the ball ... RULING: A1 has violated; throwing the ball against an opponent’s backboard ... constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it strikes ... the board. (4-4-5; 4-15-1, 2; Fundamental 19)

Fundamental 19. A ball which touches the front face or edges of the backboard is treated the same as touching the floor inbounds, except that when the ball touches the thrower’s backboard, it does not constitute a part of a dribble.

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 951225)
In the plays above it is clear that the intent of the ball handler was not to dribble. A pass is when the ball is directed to another player. If the thrower is first to touch, the other player is eliminated from the play, creating the violation.

A1 ends his dribble and throws the ball against his opponent's backboard. What are we going to call this "throw(ing)" motion?

It can be a fumble, but I think that the NFHS would have told us it was unintentional if they expected us to think that it was a fumble. So, it's not a fumble.

Maybe it's a pass? But some in this thread have stated that a pass must be to somebody, and I doubt that there was somebody sitting on top of the backboard. Maybe there was somebody waiting to catch the pass after the ball deflected off the backboard, but the NFHS did not give us that information either. So, it wasn't a pass. Which is much better stated in just another ref's post above.

Maybe it was a try? But it couldn't have been a try because we at know that you can't have a try at an opponent's basket. So, it wasn't a try.

Let's see? What left? A dribble. That's left. It must have been a dribble. The NFHS even tells us that it was a dribble in the casebook play ("constitutes another dribble").

So it was a dribble, and when does the NFHS want us to call this illegal (double) dribble violation?

When the ball is released (pushed to the floor, which in this case is the backboard) by the ball handler? No.

How about when the ball hits the backboard (pushed to the floor, which in this case is the backboard)? No.

How about when the ball hits the real floor? Again, another no.

It appears that the NFHS wants us to call the violation when "A1 is first to touch the ball after it strikes the board" (of course the backboard is the same as the floor in this case).

So it appears that the NFHS wants us to wait until A1 touches the ball before we call the violation. Why would they want us to wait? Because a few things could happen that would prevent the violation? Like what? What could happen to prevent the illegal (double) dribble violation from being called?

A teammate touches the ball first? Sure, that would prevent the violation from being called, it's just a very odd, but legal, bounce pass.

An opponent touches the ball first? Sure, that would prevent the violation from being called, and the opponent would probably get credit for a steal.

The ball bounces of the real floor and then out of bounds? That can happen.

As the ball bounces on the real floor a foul is called, or the horn sounds to end the period? All certainly possible.

Bottom line, the NFHS wants us to wait until the ball handler touches the ball again before we call an illegal (double) dribble violation. Not when the ball is released (pushed), and not when the ball hits the floor (or the opponent's backboard). The NFHS wants us to wait until the ball handler touches the ball again (after the release, and after the ball hit the floor) and then, and only then, we can call the illegal (double) dribble violation.

Camron Rust Tue Jan 20, 2015 05:22pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 951322)
Bottom line, the NFHS wants us to wait until the ball handler touches the ball again before we call an illegal (double) dribble violation. Not when the ball is released (pushed), and not when the ball hits the floor (or the opponent's backboard). The NFHS wants us to wait until the ball handler touches the ball again (after the release, and after the ball hit the floor) and then, and only then, we can call the illegal (double) dribble violation.

You're taking a special case (off the backboard) and trying to apply it generally. There are other more direct cases that indicate that it is a violation when the ball is pushed to the floor without mention of who touches it next, if anyone.


Quote:

4.15.4 SITUATION A: As dribbler A1 attempts to change directions to avoid guard B1, he/she allows the ball to come to rest in one hand in bringing the ball from the right to the left side of the body. A1 pushes the ball to the floor in an attempt to continue the dribble. RULING: When A1 palmed/carried the ball, the dribble ended and when he/she pushed the ball to the floor a violation occurred. (9-5)
The difference is in the ambiguity of the action. A throw off the backboard is an unusual action and it can go a lot of ways.

Pushing the ball straight down looking like the 1000 previous dribbles the player makes is unambiguous....it is a dribble the moment it leaves the hand.

Pushing the ball away, towards another player or a space, in a way that doesn't look like at all like a dribble may require waiting to confirm that it was a dribble.

BillyMac Tue Jan 20, 2015 05:39pm

Is There A Carry Rule ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 951324)
4.15.4 SITUATION A: As dribbler A1 attempts to change directions to avoid guard B1, he/she allows the ball to come to rest in one hand in bringing the ball from the right to the left side of the body. A1 pushes the ball to the floor in an attempt to continue the dribble. RULING: When A1 palmed/carried the ball, the dribble ended and when he/she pushed the ball to the floor a violation occurred. (9-5)

Is this "carry violation" actually for an illegal dribble violation, or a travel violation? The casebook play doesn't differentiate. If it's a travel, you don't have to wait until the ball hits anything, the violation occurs right away.

I see a signal (carry/palming) in the rulebook, but I don't see a carry rule.

just another ref Tue Jan 20, 2015 06:43pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 951327)
Is this "carry violation" actually for an illegal dribble violation, or a travel violation? The casebook play doesn't differentiate. If it's a travel, you don't have to wait until the ball hits anything, the violation occurs right away.

I see a signal (carry/palming) in the rulebook, but I don't see a carry rule.

This case play, like this thread, had nothing to do with traveling.

BryanV21 Tue Jan 20, 2015 07:33pm

I only read the last page, so I may be missing something here. But isn't there a time when an official's judgment comes into play?

I mean, if an official feels the player has started a dribble, then the play is immediately whistled for a violation. If an official feels the player meant to pass the ball, then he should wait to see if another player touches the ball first or it goes out of bounds, and only whistle for a violation should the player that passed the ball touches it first. However, if an official isn't sure if it's the start of a dribble, then simply wait and see if the player that passed/dribbled touches it first, and only then whistle a violation.

Isn't that right? There's no one answer, and an official's judgment must come into play. Meaning that, without video or actually being there, you can't say one way or another.

Camron Rust Tue Jan 20, 2015 07:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BryanV21 (Post 951334)
I only read the last page, so I may be missing something here. But isn't there a time when an official's judgment comes into play?

I mean, if an official feels the player has started a dribble, then the play is immediately whistled for a violation. If an official feels the player meant to pass the ball, then he should wait to see if another player touches the ball first or it goes out of bounds, and only whistle for a violation should the player that passed the ball touches it first. However, if an official isn't sure if it's the start of a dribble, then simply wait and see if the player that passed/dribbled touches it first, and only then whistle a violation.

Isn't that right? There's no one answer, and an official's judgment must come into play. Meaning that, without video or actually being there, you can't say one way or another.

Exactly.

BillyMac Tue Jan 20, 2015 08:06pm

No Carry Rule ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 951333)
This case play, like this thread, had nothing to do with traveling.

From the caseplay wording, how does one determine if the carry described (remember, it's not a real rule violation) is actually an illegal dribble, or a travel?

BryanV21 Tue Jan 20, 2015 08:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 951327)
Is this "carry violation" actually for an illegal dribble violation, or a travel violation? The casebook play doesn't differentiate. If it's a travel, you don't have to wait until the ball hits anything, the violation occurs right away.

I see a signal (carry/palming) in the rulebook, but I don't see a carry rule.

4-15-4b - Dribbling
"The dribbler palms/carries the ball by allowing it to come to rest in one or both hands."

Since there is another definition (4-44) for traveling, I would say this violation falls under "illegal dribble"

Raymond Tue Jan 20, 2015 08:35pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 951333)
This case play, like this thread, had nothing to do with traveling.

This thread is about traveling because if you determined A1 to have started a dribble when dropping the ball, then by definition he lifted his pivot foot prior to releasing the ball for a dribble.

just another ref Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 951341)
This thread is about traveling because if you determined A1 to have started a dribble when dropping the ball, then by definition he lifted his pivot foot prior to releasing the ball for a dribble.

You're right, of course. I should have said traveling is only a by-product on this thread.

potato Wed Jan 21, 2015 01:24am

It should be a double dribble more than a travel. Travel if he didn't start & ended his 1st dribble prior.



Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 951183)
So, if a ball handler picks up his dribble, expecting a teammate to cut right, makes a bounce pass to the right, but the teammate cuts left instead of right, and the pass is bounced to nobody, under those conditions you can determine if it was a pass, or a dibble?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 951341)
This thread is about traveling because if you determined A1 to have started a dribble when dropping the ball, then by definition he lifted his pivot foot prior to releasing the ball for a dribble.


just another ref Wed Jan 21, 2015 01:34am

Quote:

Originally Posted by potato (Post 951368)
It should be a double dribble more than a travel. Travel if he didn't start & ended his 1st dribble prior.

You want to explain what difference it makes?

potato Wed Jan 21, 2015 04:04am

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 951369)
You want to explain what difference it makes?

the outcome is the same however the ref has to signal the correct signal since traveling & double dribble has different hand sign.

BillyMac Wed Jan 21, 2015 07:28am

Have I Been Misled ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BryanV21 (Post 951340)
Since there is another definition (4-44) for traveling, I would say this violation falls under "illegal dribble"

I was under the impression that if a stationary ball handler (no movement of feet, thus no pivot foot involved) carries the ball that it was actually an illegal (double) dribble violation, and if the ball handler carries the ball while in motion that it was probably a travel violation (called immediately, don't wait for the next dribble). Am I wrong?

Also, I have always wondered why we have a definition of carrying, and a signal, but we don't actually have a violation for carrying? Why didn't the NFHS just stick with a simple illegal (double) dribble, or a travel? In other words, could we officiate a game without a carry definition, and without a carry signal, and still interpret the act (carry) as illegal?

Raymond Wed Jan 21, 2015 08:21am

Quote:

Originally Posted by potato (Post 951368)
It should be a double dribble more than a travel. Travel if he didn't start & ended his 1st dribble prior.

Whether A1 dribbled prior to jumping and dropping the ball is irrelevant to whether or not he committed a violation in this play.

We are discussing the philosophy of when the violation occurs, immediately or after A1 retouches the ball.

Pantherdreams Wed Jan 21, 2015 08:35am

I guess in my head I'm equating this to teams that run a lot of dribble hand offs. Imagine players constantly running at each other and then players taking off to dribble drive or bounce pass/hand off the ball. If A2 is running towards A1 and A1 releases the ball at the ground after lifting his back foot, I need to wait until either he touches it again or to see if A2 collects the dropped ball before I can determine if A1 traveled. If he's dribbling yes, if he's passing no.

So if a player jumps up and releases the ball I need to see what the next action is to consider whether or not its a dribble/pass/fumble/etc.

BryanV21 Wed Jan 21, 2015 10:23am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 951380)
I was under the impression that if a stationary ball handler (no movement of feet, thus no pivot foot involved) carries the ball that it was actually an illegal (double) dribble violation, and if the ball handler carries the ball while in motion that it was probably a travel violation (called immediately, don't wait for the next dribble). Am I wrong?

Also, I have always wondered why we have a definition of carrying, and a signal, but we don't actually have a violation for carrying? Why didn't the NFHS just stick with a simple illegal (double) dribble, or a travel? In other words, could we officiate a game without a carry definition, and without a carry signal, and still interpret the act (carry) as illegal?

I think the problem is having a "double dribble" and "carry" signal. Just one "illegal dribble" signal should suffice. I mean, a "double dribble" is not the same as a "carry", so having different signals makes sense. If you want to put them together under "illegal dribble", then I'd say there should be a different signal.

Or... you know... put the definition of "carry", along with including it under "violations", in the rule book.

so cal lurker Wed Jan 21, 2015 10:30am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BryanV21 (Post 951421)
I think the problem is having a "double dribble" and "carry" signal. Just one "illegal dribble" signal should suffice. I mean, a "double dribble" is not the same as a "carry", so having different signals makes sense. If you want to put them together under "illegal dribble", then I'd say there should be a different signal.

Or... you know... put the definition of "carry", along with including it under "violations", in the rule book.

Or is it . . . the violation is that the carry terminated the dribble, and he then dribbled it a second time, right? Seems to me that while the "carry" signal may be technically unnecessary, it conveys useful information about the nature of the violation. (Of course, one could argue that all of the signals as to what the violation was aren't truly necessary as long as the referee signals that a violation occurred . . . they are just helpful to communicate.)

just another ref Wed Jan 21, 2015 10:33am

As I recall, the carrying signal was eliminated, then put back, in the late 80's or early 90's.

BryanV21 Wed Jan 21, 2015 10:34am

Quote:

Originally Posted by so cal lurker (Post 951422)
Or is it . . . the violation is that the carry terminated the dribble, and he then dribbled it a second time, right? Seems to me that while the "carry" signal may be technically unnecessary, it conveys useful information about the nature of the violation. (Of course, one could argue that all of the signals as to what the violation was aren't truly necessary as long as the referee signals that a violation occurred . . . they are just helpful to communicate.)

The problem comes when somebody, say a coach, wants a definition of a "carry" after you call it against his team. You don't have one, which leads you to get into the definition of ending a dribble, thus leading to the question of "why isn't it a double dribble violation, instead?"

That's not a likely scenario, and it's being nit-picky, but shouldn't a rule book be that technical? If you have a signal for a "carry", then why wouldn't you define a "carry"? Or why not just call it a "double dribble" or an "illegal dribble" (needing a new signal for that)?

Camron Rust Wed Jan 21, 2015 12:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BryanV21 (Post 951421)
I mean, a "double dribble" is not the same as a "carry", so having different signals makes sense. If you want to put them together under "illegal dribble", then I'd say there should be a different signal.

Actually, it is. All carries are "double" dribbles. Some might be travels too. In fact, the actual rule is "illegal dribble", so it is covered under that just fine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by so cal lurker (Post 951422)
Or is it . . . the violation is that the carry terminated the dribble, and he then dribbled it a second time, right? Seems to me that while the "carry" signal may be technically unnecessary, it conveys useful information about the nature of the violation.

Exactly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 951423)
As I recall, the carrying signal was eliminated, then put back, in the late 80's or early 90's.

Yes. It was added back, not to make something new illegal, but for communication purposes.

BryanV21 Wed Jan 21, 2015 12:28pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 951450)
Actually, it is. All carries are "double" dribbles. Some might be travels too. In fact, the actual rule is "illegal dribble", so it is covered under that just fine.

But not all "double dribbles" are "carries". Which is what I was getting at.

Camron Rust Wed Jan 21, 2015 02:44pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BryanV21 (Post 951452)
But not all "double dribbles" are "carries". Which is what I was getting at.

Right. So? And there are no "double dribbles" anyway. The call is "illegal dribble". It is just a broad term for a class of infractions. Carry is just a narrow term for one of the infractions in the class of illegal dribbles.

BillyMac Wed Jan 21, 2015 04:32pm

Carry ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 951450)
All carries are "double" dribbles.

No they aren't.

4-15-4b - Dribbling "The dribbler palms/carries the ball by allowing it to come to rest in one or both hands."

If the ball handler carries the ball by allowing it to come to rest in one hand and take a few steps (moving the pivot foot) while doing so, and never starts, or ends, a second dribble (no release, no ball bouncing on the floor), before the official signals a carry (the dribbler allowed the ball to come to rest in one hand), then there is absolutely no way that this is an illegal (double) dribble, it's a travel violation (since there is actually no such thing as a real carry violation, by rule).

BryanV21 Wed Jan 21, 2015 04:39pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 951496)
Right. So? And there are no "double dribbles" anyway. The call is "illegal dribble". It is just a broad term for a class of infractions. Carry is just a narrow term for one of the infractions in the class of illegal dribbles.

Define a "Palming carry" (add it in Rule 9) or do away with the signal and just make one for an "illegal dribble".

Personally, I like the different signals as they help with communication, and avoid coaches always asking "what did he do" after a call. And while I doubt the lack of a definition for "Palming carry" in Rule 9 would be a problem, I don't see an issue with bringing it up and fixing it (which is not hard to do) before it comes up.

just another ref Wed Jan 21, 2015 05:05pm

I have never seen the carry signal associated with a travel. If the player catches the ball and travels with it, it's traveling. Carrying is not a violation. It's pretty much just a pantomime showing what the dribbler did to create an illegal dribble violation. The signal, by the book, is really a little subtle action where the emphasis should be on turning over the palm. This is also basically the same signal as an over and back violation. But some officials turn the carry signal into a giant windmill action involving a full rotation with the arm extended. This serves to fuel the myth that any dribble above what is perceived as a "normal" height must be a violation.

BillyMac Wed Jan 21, 2015 05:51pm

It's Elementary My Dear Watson ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 951538)
... some officials turn the carry signal into a giant windmill action involving a full rotation with the arm extended. This serves to fuel the myth that any dribble above what is perceived as a "normal" height must be a violation.

A-ha. So that's where the myth came from.

From the "List":

Palming, or carrying, is when the ball comes to rest in the player's hand, and the player either travels with the ball, or dribbles a second time. There is no restriction as to how high a player may bounce the ball, provided the ball does not come to rest in a player’s hand. Steps taken during a dribble are not traveling, including several that are sometimes taken when a high dribble takes place. It is not possible for a player to travel during a dribble.

Camron Rust Wed Jan 21, 2015 07:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 951520)
No they aren't.

4-15-4b - Dribbling "The dribbler palms/carries the ball by allowing it to come to rest in one or both hands."

If the ball handler carries the ball by allowing it to come to rest in one hand and take a few steps (moving the pivot foot) while doing so, and never starts, or ends, a second dribble (no release, no ball bouncing on the floor), before the official signals a carry (the dribbler allowed the ball to come to rest in one hand), then there is absolutely no way that this is an illegal (double) dribble, it's a travel violation (since there is actually no such thing as a real carry violation, by rule).

Then that is a travel, not a carry.

potato Wed Jan 21, 2015 10:01pm

The palming/carry is simply an action that made the ball come to a rest on the player's hand, it doesn't necessary means it's a violation, so you need to see how the play goes on and what the player does, if the player is palming/carrying while standing still obviously he just ended his dribble & there's no violation, if he lifted his pivot and retouch the ground with the pivot with the ball still on him then it's a travel.

Raymond Wed Jan 21, 2015 10:40pm

Of course you all know what play we had in our game tonight.

potato Wed Jan 21, 2015 10:52pm

The play we're talking about has nothing to do with carry/palming, so we're pretty much discussing about the technical terms for carry/palming as we type.


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