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"Shooter Changes His Mind" Travel (Video)
Wofford @ UT-C
12:35 of 2nd half MASN (cable network) A1 goes up to shoot, then changes mind and looks to A2, who has moved from his and doesn't know A1 was looking to him. A1 drops the ball behind A2. Who says that is a travel right away? Who doesn't? (me) Where's a poll when you need one. :D BTW, after the ball hits the floor, B1 touches ball first just before A1 does. Play is no-called and B1 ended up with possession. |
I see this the same as intentional grounding. If there is (was) a player "in the vicinity", no violation. If this player is all alone with the defender and obviously drops the ball because he is avoiding a blocked shot, I have an immediate violation.
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If, however, you're 100% sure he was avoiding something (blocked shot or travel) and the ball goes more or less straight down toward the floor, then I have a travel (for releasing the ball on a dribble after the pivot foot has been lifted). Judgment call. |
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So how is it any different if I receive a pass, go up for a shot, realize it isn't going to work, and "pass" the ball. If I hadn't dribbled in the first place, can't I now go to the ball and dribble it? |
Travelin' Man (Lynyrd Skynyrd, 1976) ...
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Who You Gonna Call ???
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When an airborne player keeps control of an attempted shot that is blocked and is unable to release the ball and returns to the floor with it, that player has not traveled; it is a held ball. If, in this situation, the shooter loses control of the ball because of the block, then this is simply a blocked shot and play continues. If, in this situation, the defender simply touches the ball, and the airborne shooter returns to the floor holding the ball, it’s a traveling violation. When an airborne player tries for goal, sees that the try will be blocked, purposely drops the ball, and picks up the ball after it hits the floor, that player has traveled by starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor. |
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As stated above, this part may not be necessary to have a violation. |
Madame Zelda, High School Basketball Official Extraordinaire ...
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Got A Hot Date After The Game ???
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Subsequent Seconds ???
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We're going to have to agree to disagree. I'm not sounding my whistle for a travel as soon as he releases the ball, because a lot of things can happen in the subsequent seconds that make this a legal play, including a steal by the defense. The only thing that would make it illegal, is if he's the first to touch the ball after the release. Only then is it a travel, for lifting the pivot foot before the ball is released to start a dribble. |
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Again, What's The Rush ???
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Like Frank Sinatra, My Way ...
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they all seem to stand for the proposition that the player has to be the first to touch the ball for there to be a violation. the 4.15.4 play is the one where A1 ends dribble and then throws it off his opponents backboard or an official, immediately recovers ball. wording says throwing ball off backboard or official is start of another dribble, PROVIDED A1 is the first to touch it after striking board or official. 4.44.3 play deals with the player who jumps to shoot, ball is touched by B but not knocked loose or out of his hand. shooter then drops ball to floor and is first to touch it--violation. clearly isn't trying to pass to another player in that play either. still violation is being first to touch it. the rules definitions/case plays make us wait to see what happens next before we are able to characterize what the drop of the ball actually is…if player who dropped it with no pivot foot is first to touch it--illegal dribble. if another player touches it first--pass. if the ball just sits there with no one touching --Limbo i hear what your saying but i think rules require the touch. |
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IOW: "It ain't what it is until it is what it ain't." |
Let's Go To The Videotape ...
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4.15.4 SITUATION C: After dribbling and coming to a stop, A1 throws the ball: (a) against the opponent’s backboard and catches the rebound; (b) against an official, immediately recovers the ball and dribbles again; or (c) against his/her own backboard in an attempt to score (try), catches the rebound and dribbles again. RULING: A1 has violated in both (a) and (b). Throwing the ball against the opponent’s backboard or an official constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it strikes the official or the board. In (c), the action is legal. Once the ball is released on the try, there is no player or team control, therefore, A1 can recover the rebound and begin a dribble. 9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the ball against: (a) his/her own backboard; (b) the opponent’s backboard; or (c) an official and catches the ball after each. RULING: Legal in (a); a team’s own backboard is considered part of that team’s “equipment” and may be used. In (b) and (c), A1 has violated; throwing the ball against an opponent’s backboard or an official constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it strikes the official or the board. (4-4-5; 4-15-1, 2; Fundamental 19) 4.44.3 SITUATION A: A1 jumps to try for goal. B1 also jumps and: (a) slaps the ball out of A1’s hands; (b) touches the ball but does not prevent A1 from releasing the ball; (c) touches the ball and A1 returns to the floor holding the ball; or (d) touches the ball and A1 drops it to the floor and touches it first after it bounces. RULING: In (a) and (b), the ball remains live. In (c), a traveling violation. In (d), a violation for starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor. Since the touching did not prevent the pass or try in (b), (c) and (d), the ball remains live and subsequent action is covered by rules which apply to the situation. |
Bartlett's Familiar Quotations ...
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There's No Official In TEAM ...
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The 4-31 definition of a pass being "to another player," was eye opening. (Definitions are so helpful yet so easily overlooked.) So based on my scenario earlier of a player who had not dribbled, jumped but then bailed on the try and passed, only to have no teammate there and go get the ball, I now agree that's a travel because if it wasn't a pass, what else can the act constitute other than a dribble (assuming it isn't an obvious fumble)? |
Of Course, I'm Never On The Wrong Side ...
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Close, But No Cigar ...
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Bump for APG
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This looks like a blocked shot on some level. It does look like he was trying to adjust his shot and probably changed his mind, but I think the defender touched the ball which I would have no violation in that case. At least that is by the angle we are seeing.
Peace |
Violation. Even if he did touch the ball, and it's hard to say from this angle, the touch definitely didn't prevent the release.
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Again, I see this as a blocked shot more than anything. It does look like the shooter tried to change something mid-air but it appears the ball was still kind of knocked out of his hand. If I had any doubt, that is what I would go with an not call a violation. But I am willing to go with a violation if I see a better angle or closer slow-motion view. Peace |
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if A1 becomes the 1st person to touch the ball he intentionally dropped or passed then it's a violation. but then again after watching the video clearly it's a violation. It was no longer a blocked shot when the shooter decides to lob the ball out, apparently he was the 1st player to touch the ball despite not able to get possession, it was not a fumble so he's not allowed to be the 1st player to touch the ball again, which he intentionally did. Traveling? Double dribble? |
I literally posted a clip of the play in question potato
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I wouldn't call it immediately if a teammate was in the area. But he was the first to touch, which seals the deal no matter what. |
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4.15.4 SITUATION A: As dribbler A1 attempts to change directions to avoid guard B1, he/she allows the ball to come to rest in one hand in bringing the ball from the right to the left side of the body. A1 pushes the ball to the floor in an attempt to continue the dribble. RULING: When A1 palmed/carried the ball, the dribble ended and when he/she pushed the ball to the floor a violation occurred. (9-5) |
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Wouldn't you consider how the play goes & how A1 reacts after he dropped the ball on the floor, and immediately calls for a double dribble the moment the ball bounces on the floor, in this case? |
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The definition of a dribble is to push the ball to the floor, one or more times. If the ball is not directed toward another player, I see it as a dribble, whether it is touched again or not. |
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I don't mean a bad pass. I mean a player who end a dribble, gives a head fake, then forgets and pushes the ball straight to the floor and heads to the basket. I'm talking about a player who drops the ball straight to the floor to avoid having his shot blocked. As always, judgment is involved. |
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Obviously if A1 is the first to touch, it's a travel. |
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Doesn't a patient whistle solve most of this. If he drops it and teammate collects it: pass. If he drops it and the other team recovers it: turnover we're still playing. If he drops it and then tries to gather it again you could apply the travel or double dribble depending on your interp of his actions. I understand that we want an absolute she can or can't do x, but in these situations isn't it just as effective to hold off on your whistle and let the play sort itself out with no debate about intent vs result.
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Here's the deal, for those who haven't heard it before. As cited earlier by Nevada, when a dribble is illegal it occurs when the ball is pushed to the floor.
4.15.4 SITUATION A: As dribbler A1 attempts to change directions to avoid guard B1, he/she allows the ball to come to rest in one hand in bringing the ball from the right to the left side of the body. A1 pushes the ball to the floor in an attempt to continue the dribble. RULING: When A1 palmed/carried the ball, the dribble ended and when he/she pushed the ball to the floor a violation occurred. (9-5) People say you can't judge intent. You can judge intent. We do it all the time on fouls. Two shots? Worst case scenario is this. A1 goes up to shoot, sees his shot will be blocked and drops the ball straight to the floor. He then assumes an aggressive stance and tries to screen the defender away from the ball while yelling to his teammate: "Hey, A2! Come get the ball. I can't touch it!" B1 then takes a swipe at the ball and knocks it out of bounds. If you didn't call the violation immediately, you give the ball back to Team A. I think this is wrong. |
Push It (Salt-N-Pepa, 1986) ...
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Pass Or Dribble ???
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your narration make it's easy to tell it's a pass since you used the word pass, try use "dropped" instead.
someone mention it's possible to judge intent, it is, say if a person is doing a standard shooting form that 90% players do, you can judge the move as a try, if someone drops the ball like 90% players when they starts a dribble, you can say it's a dribble even if the person didn't touch the ball after the bounce, if a person merely drops the ball on the floor like this case and you want to call it a double dribble, well you need some statistic to back up your judgement on the dribbling intent. |
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Case Book 9.5: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the ball against: (a) his/her own backboard; (b) the opponent's backboard; or (c) an official and catches the ball after each. RULING: Legal in (A); a team's own backboard is considered part of the team's "equipment" and may be used. In (b) and (c), A1 has violated; throwing the ball against an opponent's backboard or an official constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it strikes the official or the board. (4-4-5; 4-15-1, 2; Fundamental 19) (italics added) (And, Fundamental 19 dispells any argument that the ball touching the backboard is inherently different from touching the floor.) |
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In the case of the player who throws/drops the ball straight to the floor, often inches from his own foot, usually there is not another player to consider in the play. Therefore, in my opinion, it is an immediate violation. |
There's alot of ways you can see it if you really want to judge the play immediately after the player dropped the ball, in this case, he dropped the ball not in a way a player would normally start a dribble, the player might have "fumbled" and dropped the ball, by calling it double dribble instead of waiting to see how the play goes, sounds a bit unforgiving. Because players normally don't drop the ball to start a dribble, they bounce it.
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I see situation #1: at least twice per game. I see situation #2: at least 3 to 4 times per game. I see situation#3: perhaps 1 or 2 times per season. I have never seen situation#4, neither while officiating nor while observing a game. |
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Case Book play 4.15.4 SITUATION A ignores the statement in Fundamental 19. And seems to me to be another hasty inerpretation of the dribble/illegal dribble rule. That Case Book play is followed by 4.15.4 SITUATION C, which again uses the statement ". . . provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it strikes the official or the board." (italiccs added) This is consistent with Fundamental 19, and again leads one to believe that 4.15.4 A, is a mis-statement of the intent. Perhaps the crux of the matter is one's understanding of the statement in 4-15-1 DRIBBLE . . . "A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s) or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times." (italics added) and its relation to 4-15-3 which defines the start of a dribble, and 4-15-4, which defines the end of a dribble. In one train of thought, the start of the dribble constitutes a (complete)dribble, thus the immediate ruling that such action is illegal, if/when it follows the end of a previous dribble. However, by applying the definition of the end of a dribble, one is led to understand that a dribble must have a beginning and an end, to meet the definition of a (complete) dribble, and only then can a ruling of a legal/illegal dribble be effected. In that second train of thought, the " . . . pushing, throwing or batting (of) the ball to the floor before the pivot foot is lifted" as stated in 4-15-3 "may" be the start of a dribble, but that action can only be considered a (complete) dribble when and if the dribble is ended, as in 4-15-4. (italics added) And that second train of thought leads one to the conclusion, as afore-stated, that when a legal dribble has ended, a subsequent ". . . pushing, throwing or batting (of) the ball to the floor, (or other surface of the playing apparatus, with exceptions noted) must be followed by ". . . the player being the first to touch the ball, thereafter" for that action to be considered a (complete) and therefore second, and thus an illegal dribble. |
That's My Story And I'm (Probably) Sticking To It ...
9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he throws the ball against ... the opponent’s backboard ... and catches the ball ... RULING: A1 has violated; throwing the ball against an opponent’s backboard ... constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it strikes ... the board. (4-4-5; 4-15-1, 2; Fundamental 19)
Fundamental 19. A ball which touches the front face or edges of the backboard is treated the same as touching the floor inbounds, except that when the ball touches the thrower’s backboard, it does not constitute a part of a dribble. Quote:
It can be a fumble, but I think that the NFHS would have told us it was unintentional if they expected us to think that it was a fumble. So, it's not a fumble. Maybe it's a pass? But some in this thread have stated that a pass must be to somebody, and I doubt that there was somebody sitting on top of the backboard. Maybe there was somebody waiting to catch the pass after the ball deflected off the backboard, but the NFHS did not give us that information either. So, it wasn't a pass. Which is much better stated in just another ref's post above. Maybe it was a try? But it couldn't have been a try because we at know that you can't have a try at an opponent's basket. So, it wasn't a try. Let's see? What left? A dribble. That's left. It must have been a dribble. The NFHS even tells us that it was a dribble in the casebook play ("constitutes another dribble"). So it was a dribble, and when does the NFHS want us to call this illegal (double) dribble violation? When the ball is released (pushed to the floor, which in this case is the backboard) by the ball handler? No. How about when the ball hits the backboard (pushed to the floor, which in this case is the backboard)? No. How about when the ball hits the real floor? Again, another no. It appears that the NFHS wants us to call the violation when "A1 is first to touch the ball after it strikes the board" (of course the backboard is the same as the floor in this case). So it appears that the NFHS wants us to wait until A1 touches the ball before we call the violation. Why would they want us to wait? Because a few things could happen that would prevent the violation? Like what? What could happen to prevent the illegal (double) dribble violation from being called? A teammate touches the ball first? Sure, that would prevent the violation from being called, it's just a very odd, but legal, bounce pass. An opponent touches the ball first? Sure, that would prevent the violation from being called, and the opponent would probably get credit for a steal. The ball bounces of the real floor and then out of bounds? That can happen. As the ball bounces on the real floor a foul is called, or the horn sounds to end the period? All certainly possible. Bottom line, the NFHS wants us to wait until the ball handler touches the ball again before we call an illegal (double) dribble violation. Not when the ball is released (pushed), and not when the ball hits the floor (or the opponent's backboard). The NFHS wants us to wait until the ball handler touches the ball again (after the release, and after the ball hit the floor) and then, and only then, we can call the illegal (double) dribble violation. |
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Pushing the ball straight down looking like the 1000 previous dribbles the player makes is unambiguous....it is a dribble the moment it leaves the hand. Pushing the ball away, towards another player or a space, in a way that doesn't look like at all like a dribble may require waiting to confirm that it was a dribble. |
Is There A Carry Rule ???
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I see a signal (carry/palming) in the rulebook, but I don't see a carry rule. |
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I only read the last page, so I may be missing something here. But isn't there a time when an official's judgment comes into play?
I mean, if an official feels the player has started a dribble, then the play is immediately whistled for a violation. If an official feels the player meant to pass the ball, then he should wait to see if another player touches the ball first or it goes out of bounds, and only whistle for a violation should the player that passed the ball touches it first. However, if an official isn't sure if it's the start of a dribble, then simply wait and see if the player that passed/dribbled touches it first, and only then whistle a violation. Isn't that right? There's no one answer, and an official's judgment must come into play. Meaning that, without video or actually being there, you can't say one way or another. |
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No Carry Rule ...
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"The dribbler palms/carries the ball by allowing it to come to rest in one or both hands." Since there is another definition (4-44) for traveling, I would say this violation falls under "illegal dribble" |
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It should be a double dribble more than a travel. Travel if he didn't start & ended his 1st dribble prior.
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Have I Been Misled ???
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Also, I have always wondered why we have a definition of carrying, and a signal, but we don't actually have a violation for carrying? Why didn't the NFHS just stick with a simple illegal (double) dribble, or a travel? In other words, could we officiate a game without a carry definition, and without a carry signal, and still interpret the act (carry) as illegal? |
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We are discussing the philosophy of when the violation occurs, immediately or after A1 retouches the ball. |
I guess in my head I'm equating this to teams that run a lot of dribble hand offs. Imagine players constantly running at each other and then players taking off to dribble drive or bounce pass/hand off the ball. If A2 is running towards A1 and A1 releases the ball at the ground after lifting his back foot, I need to wait until either he touches it again or to see if A2 collects the dropped ball before I can determine if A1 traveled. If he's dribbling yes, if he's passing no.
So if a player jumps up and releases the ball I need to see what the next action is to consider whether or not its a dribble/pass/fumble/etc. |
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Or... you know... put the definition of "carry", along with including it under "violations", in the rule book. |
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As I recall, the carrying signal was eliminated, then put back, in the late 80's or early 90's.
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That's not a likely scenario, and it's being nit-picky, but shouldn't a rule book be that technical? If you have a signal for a "carry", then why wouldn't you define a "carry"? Or why not just call it a "double dribble" or an "illegal dribble" (needing a new signal for that)? |
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Carry ???
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4-15-4b - Dribbling "The dribbler palms/carries the ball by allowing it to come to rest in one or both hands." If the ball handler carries the ball by allowing it to come to rest in one hand and take a few steps (moving the pivot foot) while doing so, and never starts, or ends, a second dribble (no release, no ball bouncing on the floor), before the official signals a carry (the dribbler allowed the ball to come to rest in one hand), then there is absolutely no way that this is an illegal (double) dribble, it's a travel violation (since there is actually no such thing as a real carry violation, by rule). |
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Personally, I like the different signals as they help with communication, and avoid coaches always asking "what did he do" after a call. And while I doubt the lack of a definition for "Palming carry" in Rule 9 would be a problem, I don't see an issue with bringing it up and fixing it (which is not hard to do) before it comes up. |
I have never seen the carry signal associated with a travel. If the player catches the ball and travels with it, it's traveling. Carrying is not a violation. It's pretty much just a pantomime showing what the dribbler did to create an illegal dribble violation. The signal, by the book, is really a little subtle action where the emphasis should be on turning over the palm. This is also basically the same signal as an over and back violation. But some officials turn the carry signal into a giant windmill action involving a full rotation with the arm extended. This serves to fuel the myth that any dribble above what is perceived as a "normal" height must be a violation.
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It's Elementary My Dear Watson ...
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From the "List": Palming, or carrying, is when the ball comes to rest in the player's hand, and the player either travels with the ball, or dribbles a second time. There is no restriction as to how high a player may bounce the ball, provided the ball does not come to rest in a player’s hand. Steps taken during a dribble are not traveling, including several that are sometimes taken when a high dribble takes place. It is not possible for a player to travel during a dribble. |
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The palming/carry is simply an action that made the ball come to a rest on the player's hand, it doesn't necessary means it's a violation, so you need to see how the play goes on and what the player does, if the player is palming/carrying while standing still obviously he just ended his dribble & there's no violation, if he lifted his pivot and retouch the ground with the pivot with the ball still on him then it's a travel.
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Of course you all know what play we had in our game tonight.
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The play we're talking about has nothing to do with carry/palming, so we're pretty much discussing about the technical terms for carry/palming as we type.
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