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Chris Whitten Sun Jan 04, 2015 02:24pm

Another wrong team question
 
A/P throw in for Team A. Official mistakenly allows B1 to step out for the throw-in and he completes the throw-in to B2. Anything preventing switching the arrow to B?

crosscountry55 Sun Jan 04, 2015 02:27pm

If the officials recognize that the error occurred after the throw-in ended, then it's too late to make a correction. The arrow should remain with Team A and it should have the next opportunity to make an AP throw-in.

See case 6.4.1 Situation D(a), which isn't exactly the same but uses the same logic sequence.

BillyMac Sun Jan 04, 2015 03:45pm

Three In A Row ??? No Way ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Whitten (Post 948627)
A/P throw in for Team A. Official mistakenly allows B1 to step out for the throw-in and he completes the throw-in to B2. Anything preventing switching the arrow to B?

Yes. A riot, and several technical fouls. Possibly a forfeited game. Plus, a lot of ejection reports that the referee has to file with the state office. Possibly, a keyed car, and a few slashed tires, in the parking lot. No cold bottled water after the game. Don't expect the showers to have any hot water. No Christmas card from the coach next season. Probably not getting that coach's vote for the state tournament. At least you won't be going back there anymore in this lifetime.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Sun Jan 04, 2015 08:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Whitten (Post 948627)
A/P throw in for Team A. Official mistakenly allows B1 to step out for the throw-in and he completes the throw-in to B2. Anything preventing switching the arrow to B?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 948634)
Yes. A riot, and several technical fouls. Possibly a forfeited game. Plus, a lot of ejection reports that the referee has to file with the state office. Possibly, a keyed car, and a few slashed tires, in the parking lot. No cold bottled water after the game. Don't expect the showers to have any hot water. No Christmas card from the coach next season. Probably not getting that coach's vote for the state tournament. At least you won't be going back there anymore in this lifetime.


First, we want to apply:

NHFS Casebook Play 6.4.1 Situation D(a): It is Team B's turn for the next throw-in under the alternation possession procedure. By mistake, Team A is given that throw-in. Team A commits a throw-in violation. RULING: Once the throw-in ends it is too late to change anything. The throw-in ends when Team A violates and results in a throw-in for Team B as well as the arrow for the next alternating possession.


Therefore, in the OP, the AP Throw-in ended when it was legally touched by B2. But Team A will retain the AP Arrow. And you can tell Team A's HC that his team is going to get two of the next three AP Arrows.

And Billy is probably correct. LOL!

There is something to be said to putting the Ball back into play with a Jump Ball, :p.

MTD, Sr.


P.S. The Caseball Play had Teams A and B reversed from the OP and I switched them around in my mind while composing my OP.

Raymond Sun Jan 04, 2015 08:42pm

mark, the case play you cited does not support the ruling you typed below it.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Sun Jan 04, 2015 08:51pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 948659)
mark, the case place you cited does not support the ruling you typed below it.


DOH!! I was watching TV and eating dinner with the Better Half and didn't pay attention to the fact the Teams A and B were the opposite in the Casebook Play from the OP. I corrected my OP.

MTD, Sr.

Nevadaref Sun Jan 04, 2015 08:56pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Therefore, in the OP, the AP Throw-in ended when it was legally touched by B2. The AP Arrow will be reversed to Team B. And you cannot even tell Team A's HC that is team is going to get two of the next three AP Arrows.

Not correct according to an NFHS ruling which states that a team should not be awarded consecutive AP throw-ins if the officials are aware of it. However, I can't seem to locate that ruling at this time!

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Sun Jan 04, 2015 08:59pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 948662)
Not correct according to this NFHS ruling:


Read my correction and my response to BadNewsRef.

MTD, Sr.

Chris Whitten Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:49pm

When the ball is legally touched inbounds isn't the arrow required to be switched? I agree it is logical that a team is not allowed consecutive A/P throws in, but where may I find that reference?

BigCat Sun Jan 04, 2015 11:24pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Whitten (Post 948669)
When the ball is legally touched inbounds isn't the arrow required to be switched? I agree it is logical that a team is not allowed consecutive A/P throws in, but where may I find that reference?

take a look at the actual play in the case book that Mark cited. 6.4.1 D. that is the reference. normally, you do change the arrow when the throw in legally touched/ends. however, usually the ball is given to the right team. here the arrow is pointing to A but you gave the ball to B. if you dont fix it before the throw in ends you have converted this AP throwin for A to one for B. the next one will go to A. the arrow is already pointing to A so you dont have to worry about changing it.

you can get that from reading the actual play.

Raymond Mon Jan 05, 2015 12:09am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Whitten (Post 948669)
When the ball is legally touched inbounds isn't the arrow required to be switched? I agree it is logical that a team is not allowed consecutive A/P throws in, but where may I find that reference?

Yes, it's turned to the team that did not execute the last A.P. throw-in. So if the wrong team threw the ball in, then the arrow is placed towards the team that should have.

Do not overthink this.

Adam Mon Jan 05, 2015 12:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Whitten (Post 948669)
When the ball is legally touched inbounds isn't the arrow required to be switched? I agree it is logical that a team is not allowed consecutive A/P throws in, but where may I find that reference?

If A is entitled to a throw in and they never get it, you don't switch the arrow.

bob jenkins Mon Jan 05, 2015 01:01pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 948724)
If A is entitled to a throw in and they never get it, you don't switch the arrow.

I agree -- but it is hard to prove it just from the rules.

Raymond Mon Jan 05, 2015 01:04pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 948727)
I agree -- but it is hard to prove it just from the rules.

There has to be a point when common sense sets in.

just another ref Mon Jan 05, 2015 01:34pm

I also don't see where it specifically says that you give the ball to the team whose basket the arrow points to. Some things you just have to figure out. It does say that the arrow is reversed when an alternating possession throw-in ends. I submit that if the throw-in is made by the team not favored by the arrow, it is not an alternating possession throw-in. It is simply a mistake. Therefore the arrow will not be reversed.


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