Todd Von Sossan

[Pantherdreams]

Originally Posted by so cal lurker

Could you kindly elaborate on this? (I can't think of an example relating to the pivot on a travel that would be OK in NFHS but not other codes. I don't claim to be an expert, but I though the NBA was more generous on this call, as there is always a pivot foot in the NBA, while not necessarily so in NFHS/NCAA.)

Primary difference, and without my rule books in front of me I can't tell you if its wording on interp, is regards to starting dribble. Basically the FIBA rule states that the ball has to be released before the pivot foot it lifted. THis is interpreted not as dirbbling motion started but very literally as seperation between ball and hand. So its not enough with most FIBA officials for the player to be starting to dribble but to have gotten far enough into the dribble that the ball is out of contact with the hand before the pivot foot is lifted.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

Basically the FIBA rule states that the ball has to be released before the pivot foot it lifted. THis is interpreted not as dirbbling motion started but very literally as seperation between ball and hand.

NFHS 4-44-3c: The pivot foot may not be lifted before the ball is released to start a dribble.


So how is this different?

[Pantherdreams]

FIBA 25.2.2

To start a dribble, the pivot foot may not be lifted before the ball is released
from the hand(s).


I think the key difference if not in the explicit of the language is how it is applied or interpreted. When I work with NFHS officials, so long as the dribble has started. IE. Hand on top of the ball making a dribbling motion, pushing the ball toward the floor. WHen the back foot comes up pretty consistently allowed to play.

When I work with FIBA official, then the ball has to be clear of the hand(s) before that back foot comes up.

When we talk about borderline. THere is a big difference between needing to see a ball being begun to be dribbled and the ball needing to free of contact with the hand.

ie.

If I'm holding the ball and let go of it with two (release) the ball and turn one hand over the top and am pushing down tostart the dribble I've met the wording requirement and ime the general application of the NFHS travel call. THe Fiba call until i've pushed it down hard enough and far enough that the ball has left all contact with my hands I can't lift that pivot foot.

[Nevadaref]

Sorry, but you have a misunderstanding of the NFHS rule and so do the NFHS officials who you work with. By rule the ball needs to be out of contact with the hand before the pivot may be lifted when starting a dribble. That is the NFHS definition of "released."
The same applies to a player releasing a try for goal before the expiration of time. I hope that your NFHS partners would not count a goal that was still in contact with the shooters hand when the horn sounded and claim that it had been "released" as the hand was pushing it towards the goal.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Sorry, but you have a misunderstanding of the NFHS rule and so do the NFHS officials who you work with. By rule the ball needs to be out of contact with the hand before the pivot may be lifted when starting a dribble. That is the NFHS definition of "released."
The same applies to a player releasing a try for goal before the expiration of time. I hope that your NFHS partners would not count a goal that was still in contact with the shooters hand when the horn sounded and claim that it had been "released" as the hand was pushing it towards the goal.

Not as far as I'm concerned.

If the player is no longer holding the ball, it is released. This is no different than any intermediate dribble. The player is not holding the ball every time it contacts his/her hand. I consider it released if the ball would fall to the floor without any other action by the dribbler.

On the shot, the ball is still at rest on the hand prior to the separation since the hand is typically under the ball....thus that release doesn't occur until it leaves the hand.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

On the shot, the ball is still at rest on the hand prior to the separation since the hand is typically under the ball....thus that release doesn't occur until it leaves the hand.

On the contrary, typically the last things to touch the ball on the shot are the fingertips. The ball is certainly not at rest immediately prior to the release.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Not as far as I'm concerned.

If the player is no longer holding the ball, it is released. This is no different than any intermediate dribble. The player is not holding the ball every time it contacts his/her hand. I consider it released if the ball would fall to the floor without any other action by the dribbler.

On the shot, the ball is still at rest on the hand prior to the separation since the hand is typically under the ball....thus that release doesn't occur until it leaves the hand.

What about for a dunk?

[Pantherdreams]

I'm with Nevada on this. Most of the NFHS refs I work with are considering not holding ball as (release) on the dribble. So even though the hand is on top and pushing the ball to the ground most NFHS officials are considering that player to have released the ball to dribble so on a takeoff they may lift their pivot foot.

Most FIBA officials I work with are calling the release from contact with the hands. So when that player takes off if they are leaning forward and trying to accelerate and pound the ball, that ball is in contact with their hands for much longer. Its not until we can see that ball released from the hands that the back foot can come up.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

Most of the NFHS refs I work with are considering not holding ball as (release) on the dribble. So even though the hand is on top and pushing the ball to the ground most NFHS officials are considering that player to have released the ball to dribble so on a takeoff they may lift their pivot foot.

Not me. That not what the rule states. If the player lifts his pivot foot from the floor before releasing the ball from contact with his hands, I'm calling it a travel violation. I'm comparing when the ball leaves his hand (is released from) to when his foot leaves (is released from) the floor. I've been doing it that way for more than thirty years and I haven't heard any complaints about my calls in this situation. Any other definition of "release" in regard to this situation is news to me.

4-44: The pivot foot may not be lifted before the ball is released, to start a dribble.

Use this new-fangled definition of "release" on a shot at the buzzer, and get ready for a whole nine yards of manure, especially when every grandmother, and the horse she rode in on, has a cell phone video camera.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

FIBA 25.2.2

To start a dribble, the pivot foot may not be lifted before the ball is released
from the hand(s).


I think the key difference if not in the explicit of the language is how it is applied or interpreted. When I work with NFHS officials, so long as the dribble has started. IE. Hand on top of the ball making a dribbling motion, pushing the ball toward the floor. WHen the back foot comes up pretty consistently allowed to play.

When I work with FIBA official, then the ball has to be clear of the hand(s) before that back foot comes up.

When we talk about borderline. THere is a big difference between needing to see a ball being begun to be dribbled and the ball needing to free of contact with the hand.

ie.

If I'm holding the ball and let go of it with two (release) the ball and turn one hand over the top and am pushing down tostart the dribble I've met the wording requirement and ime the general application of the NFHS travel call. THe Fiba call until i've pushed it down hard enough and far enough that the ball has left all contact with my hands I can't lift that pivot foot.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Sorry, but you have a misunderstanding of the NFHS rule and so do the NFHS officials who you work with. By rule the ball needs to be out of contact with the hand before the pivot may be lifted when starting a dribble. That is the NFHS definition of "released."
The same applies to a player releasing a try for goal before the expiration of time. I hope that your NFHS partners would not count a goal that was still in contact with the shooters hand when the horn sounded and claim that it had been "released" as the hand was pushing it towards the goal.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Not as far as I'm concerned.

If the player is no longer holding the ball, it is released. This is no different than any intermediate dribble. The player is not holding the ball every time it contacts his/her hand. I consider it released if the ball would fall to the floor without any other action by the dribbler.

On the shot, the ball is still at rest on the hand prior to the separation since the hand is typically under the ball....thus that release doesn't occur until it leaves the hand.

Let us review the Dribbling Rule and the Traveling Rule as they apply to the subject of this thread. I will reference the NFHS Rules but the NCAA Men's/Women's and FIBA Rules are the same as the NFHS Rules.


R4-S15-A3: "The dribble begins by pushing, throwing or batting the ball to the floor before the pivot foot is lifted."


R4-S44-A3c: "Traveling is moving a foot or feet in any direction in excess of prescribed limits while holding the ball. The limits on foot movements are as follows: After coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot: The pivot foot may not be lifted before the ball is released, to start a dribble."


R4-S44-A4b: "Traveling is moving a foot or feet in any direction in excess of prescribed limits while holding the ball. The limits on foot movements are as follows: After coming to a stop when neither foot can be a pivot: Neither foot may be lifted before the ball is released, to start a dribble."


Let me refer to a discussion about the same subject as this thread that took place at an IAABO Fall Rules Interpreters' Conference in the late 90's (Billy and Padgett, I mean 1990's not the 1890's, LOL.) when Dick Schindler was still the NFHS Basketball Rules Editor and Hank Nichols was still the NCAA Men's Basketball Rules Editor. Dick passed away a while back and Hank is still alive. Hank was one of the top NCAA men's basketball officials in the country in his time and he was also a FIBA Basketball Official who officiated
in the Pan-American Games and the FIBA World University Games. Peter Webb was chairing the session where Dick discussed the NFHS Rules Changes and POEs for the coming season, and Hank was in attendance and took part in the discussion.

The discussion centered around the following three points: (1) When does the Dribble Start? (2) How do we know that A1's release of the Ball is the Start of his/her Dribble? And (3) When does the Traveling Violation Occur?

Everybody in the discussion agreed that the Pivot Foot could not be lifted before the was released and that "release" meant no longer in contact with the Player's hand. The discussion centered around Point (2) and how does it apply to Points (1) and (3).

There were two theories with regard to Point (2): A) The Dribble starts the instant the Ball is no longer in contact wtih the Player's hand; which is what the Rules, Casebook Plays and Approved Rulings tell us. Or B) The Game Official cannot determine if the A1's release of the ball is the start of a Dribble unless A1 continues to Dribble by batting the Ball after it has made contact with the Court after A1's initial release of the Ball.

Theory "B" is a logical application of the Rules, but Theory "A" was defended by Dick and Hank because of existing Rules, Casebook Plays, and Approved Rulings. Therefore, Theory "A" is how we are to apply the Rules.

MTD, Sr.