[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

FIBA 25.2.2

To start a dribble, the pivot foot may not be lifted before the ball is released
from the hand(s).


I think the key difference if not in the explicit of the language is how it is applied or interpreted. When I work with NFHS officials, so long as the dribble has started. IE. Hand on top of the ball making a dribbling motion, pushing the ball toward the floor. WHen the back foot comes up pretty consistently allowed to play.

When I work with FIBA official, then the ball has to be clear of the hand(s) before that back foot comes up.

When we talk about borderline. THere is a big difference between needing to see a ball being begun to be dribbled and the ball needing to free of contact with the hand.

ie.

If I'm holding the ball and let go of it with two (release) the ball and turn one hand over the top and am pushing down tostart the dribble I've met the wording requirement and ime the general application of the NFHS travel call. THe Fiba call until i've pushed it down hard enough and far enough that the ball has left all contact with my hands I can't lift that pivot foot.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Sorry, but you have a misunderstanding of the NFHS rule and so do the NFHS officials who you work with. By rule the ball needs to be out of contact with the hand before the pivot may be lifted when starting a dribble. That is the NFHS definition of "released."
The same applies to a player releasing a try for goal before the expiration of time. I hope that your NFHS partners would not count a goal that was still in contact with the shooters hand when the horn sounded and claim that it had been "released" as the hand was pushing it towards the goal.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Not as far as I'm concerned.

If the player is no longer holding the ball, it is released. This is no different than any intermediate dribble. The player is not holding the ball every time it contacts his/her hand. I consider it released if the ball would fall to the floor without any other action by the dribbler.

On the shot, the ball is still at rest on the hand prior to the separation since the hand is typically under the ball....thus that release doesn't occur until it leaves the hand.

Let us review the Dribbling Rule and the Traveling Rule as they apply to the subject of this thread. I will reference the NFHS Rules but the NCAA Men's/Women's and FIBA Rules are the same as the NFHS Rules.


R4-S15-A3: "The dribble begins by pushing, throwing or batting the ball to the floor before the pivot foot is lifted."


R4-S44-A3c: "Traveling is moving a foot or feet in any direction in excess of prescribed limits while holding the ball. The limits on foot movements are as follows: After coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot: The pivot foot may not be lifted before the ball is released, to start a dribble."


R4-S44-A4b: "Traveling is moving a foot or feet in any direction in excess of prescribed limits while holding the ball. The limits on foot movements are as follows: After coming to a stop when neither foot can be a pivot: Neither foot may be lifted before the ball is released, to start a dribble."


Let me refer to a discussion about the same subject as this thread that took place at an IAABO Fall Rules Interpreters' Conference in the late 90's (Billy and Padgett, I mean 1990's not the 1890's, LOL.) when Dick Schindler was still the NFHS Basketball Rules Editor and Hank Nichols was still the NCAA Men's Basketball Rules Editor. Dick passed away a while back and Hank is still alive. Hank was one of the top NCAA men's basketball officials in the country in his time and he was also a FIBA Basketball Official who officiated
in the Pan-American Games and the FIBA World University Games. Peter Webb was chairing the session where Dick discussed the NFHS Rules Changes and POEs for the coming season, and Hank was in attendance and took part in the discussion.

The discussion centered around the following three points: (1) When does the Dribble Start? (2) How do we know that A1's release of the Ball is the Start of his/her Dribble? And (3) When does the Traveling Violation Occur?

Everybody in the discussion agreed that the Pivot Foot could not be lifted before the was released and that "release" meant no longer in contact with the Player's hand. The discussion centered around Point (2) and how does it apply to Points (1) and (3).

There were two theories with regard to Point (2): A) The Dribble starts the instant the Ball is no longer in contact wtih the Player's hand; which is what the Rules, Casebook Plays and Approved Rulings tell us. Or B) The Game Official cannot determine if the A1's release of the ball is the start of a Dribble unless A1 continues to Dribble by batting the Ball after it has made contact with the Court after A1's initial release of the Ball.

Theory "B" is a logical application of the Rules, but Theory "A" was defended by Dick and Hank because of existing Rules, Casebook Plays, and Approved Rulings. Therefore, Theory "A" is how we are to apply the Rules.

MTD, Sr.