5 second count
 

Simple question (checking to see if I owe a ref an apology...):

A player is dribbling the ball while closely guarded. After 4 seconds, he stops the dribble and holds the ball while closely guarded. Did the 5 second count reset when he stopped the dribble? NFHS.

Yes.

Thx - that's what I thought. (The referee, who called a 5 second count 1 sec after he picked up the dribble disagreed.) Is it the same in NCAA?

Yes for NCAAM. In NCAAW, there's no count while dribbling.

The Twelve Second Rule ...
 

The closely guarded rule is in effect in frontcourt only, when a defender is within six feet of the ball handler. Up to three separate five-second counts may occur on the same ball handler, holding, dribbling, and holding. The count continues even if defenders switch. The five-second count ends when a dribbler gets his or her head and shoulders ahead of the defender.

So a ball handler, who is closely guarded, can legally possess the ball for twelve seconds; holding the ball for four seconds, followed by dribbling the ball for four seconds, followed by holding the ball for four seconds.

Yes the count does start fresh. A player may hold, dribble, and hold the ball again for just under the five count each time.

That said it is likely that you owe a ref an apology for something, even if it is not this situation.

How did you know the official was only at four seconds? It could be that he got to five seconds in his head just before the dribbler picked up the ball.

That said, if this was the case, the whistle should have come as the dribbler was picking up the dribble, not a whole second later.

True in NFHS. Not true in NCAA, where the defender must be the same opponent (9-15-3 in both NCAA rulebooks).

By understanding this distinction, you'll be able to politely defend your call when you get the "They switched out!" argument from the high school coach. Chances are good that the coach is unaware of the rules difference.

Whaaaat? A coach not knowing a rule? You've go to be kidding. :rolleyes:

I was telling a 7th grade boys team yesterday that they were only supposed to have one color for their leg sleeves when they asked the coach if I had the rule right.

"I don't know. I don't open the rule book. Whatever he says is right."

This begs two questions:
1. May an official call a 5 second closely guarded violation based on "five seconds in his head", not having given the mandatory visual count?
2. Would any official want to?

Well, if his response was that the 5 second count expired before he stopped the dribble, I woudl have known he knew the dribble restarted the count (and that he had a fast count ;)). But when I said that, he tried to explain to me why I was wrong, making me wonder if I was and bringing me back here . . .
and since we were in a tournament and would see him the next day, I would have apologized if I was wrong, as I wasn't very patient when he tried to "teach" me the rule . . .

Great questions.

You won't find the answers in the rule book, but not giving a visual count is a failure to use proper mechanics, and this mechanic is important because coaches are looking for it to advise their players. For example, often when I start a visual count I'll hear something like "You've got a count, Jimmy." So if you didn't have a visual count and called a violation (3 seconds notwithstanding), you're on your own when the commissioner calls you.

That said, the number in my head and the number of arm strokes I've issued are not always exactly the same, and that's ok because I'm the only one who knows. Deciding on when to start and stop that count are matters of good game management. Sometimes I'll start a count 1-2 seconds in when I expected a player to drive or make a swing pass but they unexpectedly don't. Other times I'll count to six just to make sure I didn't count too fast. In any case, I always give the benefit of the doubt to the offense if it's close.

Yes.

No, but sometimes it happens.

But what about the Fore-Court and the Mid-Court counts. :p

MTD, Sr.

:confused:

You made me curious - why not? When is the visible count required?

In NFHS, silent and visible counts are required by rule (rule 2-8) for throw ins, free throws, backcourt, and closely guarded. So no, you should never have a 5 second count in your head or call a violation for such without having a visible count.

Had a 10 second violation call the other day where I didn't visually indicate every second. A1 inbounds the ball. I get to 4 seconds and the defender bats the ball away from the dribbler. I have a lapse in concentration and stop my visual count as players are diving on the floor for a loose ball. As I closed down on the play anticipating a held ball, A2 recovers and I realize that team control in the backcourt never ended, but I was certain that at least 3 seconds had passed. So I resume my count at 7 and eventually have a 10 second violation on A.

But to answer #2, I can't think of a reason I would want to do this. But I'd rather apply the rule correctly even if it didn't look good.

Nicely stated. I stand corrected from an earlier post about the rules not addressing the visibility of the count.

But I also completely agree with HokiePaul's perspective. I would do the same thing in that situation. Visibly count as often as you can, but using good judgment there may be times here and there when you skip a few arm strokes.

Don't worry. Typical AR MSU.

To Me, NCAA Rules Are Harder To Understand Than Rocket Surgery ...
 

As was I. Thanks.

Send Me A Contract ...
 

I want to work for that coach.

Visible Count ...
 

Maybe twenty-five years ago you would have been "the only one who knows". In 2014, almost everyone in the gymnasium has a video camera, pretty much anyone with a cell phone. Johnny "loses" the game on a late in the game ten second backcourt violation, and the next day Grandma emails the coach with proof that there were only eight visible counts.

It happens to me a couple of times each season. Sometimes it takes me a few seconds (brain fart) to realize that there's a closely guarded situation. I give it four visible counts, and call the violation knowing that it was probably six, or seven seconds. Someday, I'm going to get caught red handed on "Candid Camera". Hopefully I can explain it away by concentrating on the actual time rather than on the visible count.

So what? Assuming the count was reasonably accurate, the video will also prove that. The lack of a visible 10 second count puts nobody at a disadvantage.

Still A Good Idea To Have A Visible Count ...
 

Already got it covered:

This is the statement that I was questioning:

I agree. It's different than a 5 second count, in that there's no "closely guarded" judgment involved. Everyone knows you have 10 seconds to get across the line. With 5 seconds, it's assumed that if you're not counting, then the player isn't in jeopardy.

Not Closely Guraded ...
 

We (Connecticut IAABO) did away with the "not closely guarded" signal (it looked like the sixty-second timeout signal) this year after using it for a couple of years, for the exact reason stated by Adam.

This is what happens when you browse with multiple tabs open! I thought you were replying to this thread, where no official count is required during the second of three free throws. I am terribly sorry and have deleted my erroneous comment.

I certainly hope "MSU" doesn't stand for "making shit up" and very much doubt that I am "typical" in any relation to that statement. I always try to base my replies on rules and expectations, not fabricate responses to make myself look like I know what I'm talking about. I am confident my post history confirms this and am sorry you think this is typical behavior from me. I will try to avoid such mistakes in the future.

Last season, in one of the few HS games I worked, I completely forgot to do a ten second back court count. I was too used to going by the shot clock, that using a count did not even register, even after I looked up to make sure the shot clock was running (which it wasn't, since there wasn't one). After what was probably 12-15 seconds, I looked up again, and finally realized there was not a shot clock, and I was screwed because I wasn't really keeping that good of a count in my head. A second or so later, the offensive team got the ball into the front court, but the entire last few seconds the defensive coach was screaming for 10 seconds. I would have been completely guessing, so I did not make the call. When I got in front of the defensive coach, he asked how there wasn't a 10 second violation on that possession. I told him I screwed up, was doing college mechanics out of habit and forgot to count expecting to be able to use the shot clock. I told him I would make sure it didn't happen again. He said thanks for the explanation, and we moved on.

I got myself in trouble with a count recently. Whenever I'm Trail and the team inbounds the ball I always take a peek at the clock to 1) make sure it is running after a stoppage and 2) help out with my 10 second count. I know my physical count is a bit slow (1-2 seconds over a 10 second period) so I note the time when control is established inbounds and use that to help out my 10 second violation. So I was counting and got to 9 and the opposing bench started screaming for 10. I checked the clock and lo and behold 11 seconds had run off. I called the violation. Got tons of shit from the coach who thought I let the other team influence my call, etc. I pointed out that 11 seconds had run off the clock but he was having none of it.

I requested the video from the AD and the coach ends up emailing me the link with a little note attached: "I would encourage you to take a look at your 10 second call in the 1st quarter, seems to me to be 8 - 9 seconds & it looks like you sped up your count right at the very beginning." So I looked at it and timed it with a stopwatch three times -- 10.2 seconds each time. I was tempted to email the coach back saying he was right I missed it and should have blown my whistle .2 seconds sooner :cool:, but I held off.

In hindsight a couple things. First, don't use the clock too much. It can help you in certain situations but I was relying on it too much, and in a way not specified under NFHS mechanics. We have a visible count for a reason. Second, don't engage with the coach to explain your call. Call it and move on. Address it if the coach keeps bringing it up. Third, make sure your call looks correct on video. You never know who is watching.

One of the most valuable lessons I was taught was to look/glance at the shot clock each time I cross a line to ensure it is running and was started properly. It is amazing how often the table screws this up and coaches and assignors notice when you catch these human errors.

Your point about the video is dead on. The eye in the sky is always watching.

If you do use the game clock in HS games to help with the 10-second call, be sure it runs off 11 seconds before you call it.

It will (usually; there are some clocks, usually older that don't follow this) indicate x:45 when it's x:45.0 and will switch to x:35 when it's x:35.9, so you will have only given the team just over 9 seconds.

Of course, the opposite is true, too -- it could go from x:45.9 to x:35.0, so you will end up giving the team 11 seconds -- but that's a better choice.

That is what I do.

As a college official and even after the NFHS adopted the CCA signal I have never (with apologies to the late J. Dallas Shirley) used the signal. If I am not giving a visual count it means I do not have a Closely Guarded Situation.

MTD, Sr.