Throw In - Ball at disposal of a player
 

Study guide question:
Team A scores a goal, and B1 catches the ball before it hits the floor. As B1 is starting to step to the out-of-bounds side of the end line, A1 asks for a time-out. Should the time out request be granted?

When does the player actually have ball at his disposal and throw in starts? Is it when he has possession of ball, or does he also have to have possession and be on out-of-bounds side of end line?

At the risk of circular reasoning, think about it this way:
At what point would the official start his five second count?

Check out 4-4-7 d ... see if that answers your question.

We discussed this and decided it might be at different points depending on speed of game. For a slow paced walk up and down court probably would not start count until thrower with ball on out of bound side. For a fast paced 2-3 passes down the court and laying up on other end game, would probably start count as soon as B1 catches ball out of basket.

Was just checking to see if any specific rule or case book scenario we didn't know about that would give a more definitive answer to this question.

You would be wrong. The rule is the team has 5 seconds to release the throw in pass, how could you start the 5 second count before he is able to release that throw in pass?

In your OP, you grant the TO until B is legally able to execute a throw-in pass. "At the disposal" is meant to give the official leeway if B is taking more than a reasonable amount of time to get OOB and release a throw in.

Now that is the "Aha" description I was looking for! Thanks!

You just contradicted yourself.

See the below caseplay

4.42.3 SITUATION:

Following a goal by A1 the ball is: (a) inadvertently deflected under the bleachers; (b) bouncing on the court just outside the end line as B1 makes his/her way toward the ball; or (c) lying on the court just outside the end line as B1 delays the inbound by getting instruction from his/her coach. When does the throw-in begin and the ball become live?

RULING: In (a), the official shall signal for the clock to be stopped. The throw-in begins and the ball becomes live when it is at the disposal of Team B. In (b) and (c), the throw-in begins and the ball becomes live when it is available to B1 and the official begins the throw-in count. In (c), the throw-in count begins when the official determines B1 has had ample time to secure the ball; it need not be in B1's possession. (4-4-7d)

His first statement is the general rule. The second is the exception to that generality to prevent a team from taking advantage. The second part is (probably) not applicable to the OP (esp. if the OP was the "quick throw-in" part of the thread).

Exactly, unless there's an appreciable delay by B, I'm never starting my count prior to a player from B out of bounds WITH the ball. The option is there, but if B is doing a quick break offense off of opponents' baskets, this isn't going to come into play. If I is able to get a TO requested before B gets his foot planted OOB, I'm granting the TO.

Not really.

The OP states that "For a fast paced 2-3 passes down the court and laying up on other end game, would probably start count as soon as B1 catches ball out of basket." This isn't "wrong" by rule. It is actually consistent with the rule. It is wrong only by your interpretation of the rule, which is that you would not start your count until the player is out of bounds.

I'm not disagreeing with your interpretation ... but I disagree with your assessment that the individual would be wrong. Every part of the suggested officials action is consistent with 4-4-7 -- and if the official starts his count before the player gets out of bounds, then the ball is at the thrower's disposal and the offical should not grant the timeout.

The rule is that the team has 5 seconds to complete the throw in, I don't see how you can start the 5 second count before they can even legally make the throw in (unless they're delaying the process, which is not applicable to this situation).

In that type of game (run-n-gun) it actually benefits the throw-in team, because it prevents the opponent from calling a time-out to slow down the break. And by rule he wouldn't be wrong.

4-4-7 d. Available to a player after a goal and the official begins the throw-in count.

I said this previously, but my understanding is that the "available to a player" is what we use to start the count if Jr. is just standing there watching it bounce. I see that you're the rule doesn't specify this, and I don't disagree, but it seems to me this is where "intent" of the rule comes into play. The intent of the 5 second rule is not to prevent B from getting a quick TO just because A5 grabs the ball out on its way out of the net.

The 5 second rule is designed as a restriction on the offense, not the defense.

By the way, tell Mrs. Adam that sometimes the picture looks like a Rorschach blot.

Agree. The implied phrase is available to the player "to make a throw in". Since you can't make a throwin from inbounds, it is not yet available for the throwin until they get it OOB....or had enough time to do so but are delaying.

Starting the count and disallowing a timeout once the ball is caught coming out of the basket is indeed wrong.

4-42-2 "A throw-in is a method of putting the ball in play from out of bounds."

7-6-1 "The official shall hand or bounce the ball to the thrower for a throw-in unless the throw-in is from outside an end line following a successful goal."

9-2-4 "Once the throw-in starts, the ball shall be released . . . . .. . before five seconds have elapsed." We cannot take away any of the allotted five seconds by starting the count while the thrower is still in bounds.

I can find no rule basis for ever starting a throw-in and throw-in count before the thrower gets out of bounds except when the thrower delays taking the ball out of bounds as Adam says.

Nice Play Shakespeare ...
 

Agree. Nice citations.

Not all throw-ins are equal
 

By rule, after a made basket the throw in begins when two things happen - the ball is available to the player and the ref starts the count. There is no mention in the rules about allowing the player to step out of bounds first. This is different than other throw ins because we handle the ball.

Now, in practice, I give a player time to step out if they grab the ball and are not delay in moving out of bounds. I start the count if they do not secure the ball and head that way with purpose.

Using some of the logic cited earlier, then it could be argued that we shouldn't place the ball on the floor and begin a count during the delay of game procedure because if the player isn't out of bounds then we can't start the throw in. Yes, its an absurd stretch, but serves to illustrate that throw ins occur under different circumstances and are officiated that way. (And yes I know the "ROP" procedure is rule, I'm just making a point)

The answer to the question in the OP is you start the count when in your judgement you feel the team has access to the ball and has had time to pick it up and step out of bounds. You do not need to wait until they actually do so.

That is not the rule. All that rule is saying is that when the official, due to delay by the team, decides to start the throwin count, the throwin has effectively begun.

The question you have to ask about this rules is "Available for what"? What if the ball bounces funny as it comes out of the next and goes to midcourt and is picked up by a player (or into the 12th row)? Is it available then? Of course not. If not at 40' from the endline, what about 30'? 20'? How close is close enough? The only line you have is the endline.

See this rule:

So, by definition, it must be OOB for a throwin to occur.

The phrase about the official begging the count as being the start of the throwin is ONLY for situations where the player is delaying and could have been OOB. It i is not telling us to start the count as soon as a player catches it.

Agreed. And this is how I call it. If the ball bounces far away it is not at their disposal so you should not start a count. But in this situation, the throw in does not begin until they have the ball at their disposal, and I start counting. It does not matter where they re standing when these two things occur. In fact, if they step out with the ball but for somevreason I don't start counting then technically the throw in hasn't started (its splitting hairs but if they haven't released the ball you could award the timeout).

I stand by my original statement for throw ins after a made basket. Its a different situation than other throw ins.

Here are the relevant NFHS rules as I see it...

7-6-2 The throw-in starts when the ball is at the disposal of a player of the team entitled to the throw-in.

4-4-7d A ball is at the disposal of a player when it is available to a player after a goal and the official begins the throw-in count.

4-42-3 The throw-in and the throw-in count begin when the ball is at the disposal of a player of the team entitled to it.

4-42-2 A throw-in is a method of putting the ball in play from out of bounds.

Given the language of the first three, 4-42-2 should probably read "A throw-in is a method of making the ball live after it has been dead."

Why? Can it be from anywhere other than OOB?

Why? Can it be from anywhere other than OOB?

It would be more accurate to reword 4-4-7 to more clearly define disposal.

If...

*the throw-in begins when the ball is at the disposal of a player on the team entitled to it, and...
*disposal begins when the ball is available to a player and the official begins their count

and...if a player is delaying and the official begins his/her count before the player steps OOB, the throw-in, by rule, has begun.

Agree, but that is the exception to address a player/team trying to cheat the rule, not the norm.

Again, what is "available"? I can't believe that could mean anything other than actually being given enough time to get the ball to a spot where the throwin could be legally made.

Operative words here are "inferred" and "judgment".

2006-07 SITUATION 9: With less than one minute to play in the fourth quarter, Team A scores a field goal to tie the game. B1, standing under the basket after the score, secures the ball and begins heading to the end line for the ensuing throw-in. A1 requests and is granted a time-out. RULING: Legal procedure. Team A may request and be granted a time-out until the ensuing throw-in begins. The throw-in does not begin until B1 has the ball at his/her disposal and the official has begun the five-second count.

I also seem to recall that "out of bounds" was part of the "disposal" definition a few years ago. I don't have my attic handy to check.

I think it's important to remember the purpose of the 5 second rule.

It's intended to limit the time the offense has to execute a throw-in.

It is not intended to limit the scoring team's ability to request a timeout.

No it isn't. There is no mention in the rules that we wait for a player to step out of bounds even when handing or bouncing the ball to the thrower either, for that matter. We wait to start the throw-in and throw-in count in all non-delayed throw-in situations until the thrower is out of bounds because that is the way a throw-in is defined in 4-42-2. If it is acceptable to say the ball is at "disposal" and start the throw-in and count when a player immediately catches the ball in bounds after a made basket (even though not delaying) then it should also be acceptable following a time out to bounce the ball to the thrower as he/she is coming across the court and then start the count as soon as he/she possesses the ball since there is no rule that says we must wait until the thrower is out of bounds.

Great citation Bob. This all but spells out that the count doesn't start and the throw-in doesn't begin until B1 is at least OOB since it says that A1 can still have their timeout while B1 is heading towards OOB....even with no delay.

Bob - I apologize for re-hashing a month old post, but did u ever find this definition? That 5th grade girls game I was watching, the ref would start the count as soon as the ball went through the hoop. The inbounding team wasn't delaying. I was watching the ref and she was usually at 2 by the time the inbounder got out of bounds. The defense was pressing, so there were about three or four "quick" 5-second calls.

I know at the Varsity level the officials wait until the player is out-of-bounds as long as no one is delaying. And, I believe that to be the correct interpretation, but I certainly can't point to a rulebook or casebook to verify.

I didn't; nor did I look.

For me, it's about the intent of the rule. The rule is that the team has 5 seconds to complete the throw in, so why someone would want to start the count before the throw in can even be legally completed is beyond me. Well, other than to get an extra few "gotcha" calls in a 5th grade girls game.

This is the danger of people reading the rules on their own and discovering things they didn't know. This guy read the rules, and saw "at the disposal" defined, in part, by "available" and didn't take into account the context and intent.

Still Inbounds ...
 

Great point. Unless they are delaying, start the count when they can legally throw it in. They can't legally throw it in when they are still inbounds.

"The Basketball Handbook, p.71, TABLE 3-1: Time Factors
Time Allowed for: 10. Throw-in from out of bounds 5 sec."

(Thus, if the thrower-in is not out of bounds, the 5 second count must not be started. If it is started before the thrower-in is out of bounds, the 5 second count cannot be a full/valid allotment.)

4-42-1 . . . The thrower is the player who attempts to make a throw-in.
4-42-2 . . . A throw-in is a method of putting the ball in play from out of bounds.
4-42-3 . . . The throw-in and the throw-in count begin when the ball is at the disposal of a player of the team entitled to it. (that is, entitled to make the throw-in.)
4-42-4 . . .The throw-in count ends when the ball is released by the thrower so the passed ball goes directly into the court.

9-2-4 . . .Once the throw-in starts, the ball shall be released on a pass directly into the court before five seconds have elapsed.

(Thus, the throw-in count can only be started when it is possible for the thrower to "pass the ball directly into the court," which cannot be done from a position in the court. (It is impossible to make a throw-in from in-bounds.)

Provision allowing the administering/covering official to start the count, in the event of appreciable delay on the part of the throw-in team making a player available to attempt the throw-in, appears in the OFFICIALS MANUAL 2.2.2 Throw-ins A. General Provisions . . .

Me thinks those doing 5th grade games don't tend to be the best trained (if at all) or most experienced (if at all) . . .

Right. Someone with a rule book but no training.