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-   -   question about double dribble (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/98278-question-about-double-dribble.html)

Raymond Thu Aug 14, 2014 08:07am

Sometimes people want to complicate matters more than is necessary.

The test doesn't make that distinction. It assumes that the official has judged the subsequent act a dribble and wants us now to judge its legality.

Adam Thu Aug 14, 2014 11:27am

Quote:

Originally Posted by badnewsref (Post 938967)
sometimes people want to complicate matters more than is necessary.

The test doesn't make that distinction. It assumes that the official has judged the subsequent act a dribble and wants us now to judge its legality.

+1

BillyMac Thu Aug 14, 2014 03:37pm

I Didn't Know That There Was Going To Be A Test Today ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 938967)
The test doesn't make that distinction. It assumes that the official has judged the subsequent act a dribble and wants us now to judge its legality.

You've seen the test already? Can you send me a copy?

A1 dribbles into the front court and stops his/her dribble, holding the ball with two hands. Subsequently A1 fumbles the ball, which bounces twice on the floor. Without the ball being touched by any other player, A1 picks up the fumbled ball with both hands and then pushes the ball to the floor, at which point the official sounds his/her whistle and calls an illegal dribble violation on A1. Is the official correct?

bob jenkins Thu Aug 14, 2014 03:46pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 938963)
Sometimes (often) you have to officiate the game. Sometimes (seldom) you have to take a written test. In theory they should have the same answer, but sometimes theory and reality don't agree.

In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are different.

BillyMac Thu Aug 14, 2014 03:49pm

Always Listen To bob ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 938991)
In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are different.

Cool.

just another ref Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:24pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 938990)
You've seen the test already. Can you send me a copy?

A1 dribbles into the front court and stops his/her dribble, holding the ball with two hands. Subsequently A1 fumbles the ball, which bounces twice on the floor. Without the ball being touched by any other player, A1 picks up the fumbled ball with both hands and then pushes the ball to the floor, at which point the official sounds his/her whistle and calls an illegal dribble violation on A1. Is the official correct?

yes

BillyMac Fri Aug 15, 2014 06:14am

Playing Devil's Advocate ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 939003)
yes

just another ref's answer seems to be correct by the written rule. So I guess a player can't legally make a "bad" bounce pass to a nearby teammate after picking up his/her fumbled ball in this situation?

Regarding the difference, in a real game (damn the rulebook definitions), between starting a dribble, and starting a pass, to borrow a phrase from Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart, "I know it when I see it".

JetMetFan Fri Aug 15, 2014 09:46am

Legal Pass or Illegal Dribble? (video)
 
So...what about this?


<iframe width="853" height="480" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/PySgkQkzy6g?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

BillyMac Fri Aug 15, 2014 04:07pm

Ugly Play ...
 
As the announcer stated, "High bounce pass".

Adam Fri Aug 15, 2014 05:33pm

That's clearly a pass to me, but the motion sure looks the same. That's why I'm not inclined to call anything on the "double dribble" violations until the dribbler contacts the ball after the bounce.

Raymond Sat Aug 16, 2014 06:35pm

SDF officiating makes this an easy play to deal with.

BktBallRef Sun Aug 17, 2014 09:34am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 938990)
You've seen the test already. Can you send me a copy?

A1 dribbles into the front court and stops his/her dribble, holding the ball with two hands. Subsequently A1 fumbles the ball, which bounces twice on the floor. Without the ball being touched by any other player, A1 picks up the fumbled ball with both hands and then pushes the ball to the floor, at which point the official sounds his/her whistle and calls an illegal dribble violation on A1. Is the official correct?

no

BillyMac Sun Aug 17, 2014 12:07pm

Bet Your House ???
 
The NFHS wants you to bet your house on the answer to this written test question:

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 938990)
A1 dribbles into the front court and stops his/her dribble, holding the ball with two hands. Subsequently A1 fumbles the ball, which bounces twice on the floor. Without the ball being touched by any other player, A1 picks up the fumbled ball with both hands and then pushes the ball to the floor, at which point the official sounds his/her whistle and calls an illegal dribble violation on A1. Is the official correct?

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 939003)
yes

Quote:

Originally Posted by BktBallRef (Post 939053)
no

Who loses their house?

Let's go to the written rule, and definition:

9-5: A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART. 1 A try for field goal.
ART. 2 A touch by an opponent.
ART. 3 A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by, another player.

4-15: ART. 1 A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times.
ART. 3 The dribble may be started by pushing, throwing or batting the ball to the floor before the pivot foot is lifted.

In the written test question, has the player pushed the ball to the floor once, and thus started a dribble? Yes.

In the written test question, has the player committed an illegal dribble violation? Yes.

In a real game, I'm waiting to see what happens after the ball hits the floor. If the player doesn't touch the ball again, then I'm calling it a pass, not a dribble, and I'm not calling the illegal dribble violation.

On the other hand, if the NFHS were holding a gun to my head, forcing me to bet my house on the correct answer, by the book, based on the written rule as it presently stands, to this question, I'm calling it an illegal dribble violation. I want to keep my house.

Wouldn't it be nice if the NFHS cleaned up this rule, and definition, to reflect what we, here in the trenches, call in a real game?

Adam Sun Aug 17, 2014 05:12pm

The rule clarifies when a dribble begins, assuming it's a dribble. Real world officiating requires the official to judge whether it's a dribble or a pass. We can't have our collective noses buried so deep into the book we can't tell the difference. Sometimes, we have to wait a second to see whether it's a pass or a dribble. IOW, as BNR stated, SDF.

BillyMac Sun Aug 17, 2014 06:35pm

Why Can't The NFHS Be So Clear ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 939064)
Sometimes, we have to wait a second to see whether it's a pass or a dribble.

Bingo.


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