question about double dribble
 

This is a question from a pickup basketball game, but nobody really knows the rules, so I thought I'd ask some actual referees.

1. A player is dribbling the ball, and then begins to pick it up. He touches the ball with both hands at the same time, but does not control it, and it bounces on the floor. He picks it up. Is this a double dribble (or some other violation)?

2. Instead of picking it up, he tap it to a teammate.

3. Instead of picking it up, he starts dribbling again.

4. Suppose he dribbles, then picks it up cleanly with two hands, and then tries to pass, but the ball slips out of his hands and bounces on the floor. He grabs the ball.

Thanks!

Short And Sweet ...
 

Fumble, dribble, fumble: Legal.

Dribble, fumble, dribble: Illegal.

Thanks for the quick reply. I don't get it though - are you saying all four are turnovers?

No, Billy was giving you the rule of thumb for these plays.

1. Legal

2. Legal

3. Probably illegal, depends if the referee has judged the dribble to have ended.

4. Depends if the referee judges the player to have fumbled (legal) or passed the ball (illegal).

In general, it's always legal to recover a fumble. What is a fumble will be a judgement call.

I also want to point out that since you mention pick up ball, a lot of what players want to apply in games are NBA rules. What Billy pointed out (as far as fumbling and dribbling) is true for NFHS (US high school and NCAA) rules.

For the NBA, assuming the player had not used their dribble yet, may recover a fumble. The fumbler may only dribble if he recovers the ball before it hits the floor and/or he moves his pivot foot. If either of those occur, he may still recover but not dribble the ball after recovery.

In addition, under NBA rules, may not recover a bad pass (which can look like a fumble), even if he hasn't used his dribble. This is considered a self-pass (a concept only under NBA rules)

Again, the only reason I bring up these scenarios is when playing pick-up games, people tend to try and apply NBA rules such as not being able to recover your own airball.

Fumbles ...
 

1. A player is dribbling the ball, and then begins to pick it up. He touches the ball with both hands at the same time, but does not control it, and it bounces on the floor. He picks it up.

Legal. One can always legally pick up a fumble.

2. Instead of picking it up, he taps it to a teammate.

Legal. If it's legal to pick up the fumble, than it must also be legal to tap the fumble.

3. Instead of picking it up, he starts dribbling again.

Illegal dribble. The first dribble ended when the ball was touched with both hands.

4. Suppose he dribbles, then picks it up cleanly with two hands, and then tries to pass, but the ball slips out of his hands and bounces on the floor. He grabs the ball.

Legal. One can always legally pick up a fumble.

#3 is the only one that is a violation. When the dribbler touches the ball with both hands, the dribble has ended. When he dribbles again, violation.

Bonus Question ...
 

When is the violation called? When the ball is released toward the floor? When the ball is released toward the floor, and hits the floor? When the ball is released toward the floor, hits the floor, and is subsequently tapped to the floor?

You don't know it's a dribble until the ball handler touches it again after releasing it. Until then it could just be a really lousy pass.

When Does The Violation Occur ???
 

I agree with you, but the definition states that the "second" illegal dribble starts when the ball is pushed, thrown, or batted to the floor.

4-15-3: The dribble may be started by pushing, throwing, or batting the ball
to the floor before the pivot foot is lifted.

It's the same old crap that gets brought up everytime we have this discussion. If NFHS clarified it, you'd be the firsts to know.

Until then, just officiate. It's never been an issue -- and if you happen to call it too soon, just decalre an inadvertant whistle.

From the time the ball touches both hands until the time the ball hits the floor might be 3 tenths of a second. Are we really splitting that hair?

And some people say there are no stupid questions. smh

Illegal Dribble ...
 

Add a few tenths of a second if the official wants to wait until the ball is touched after it bounces off the floor before he calls the illegal dribble violation.

Okay BillyMac, if you want to wait 6 tenths of a second, by all means do.

Wait just as long as you want to.

As Bob said, just officiate the play.

Real Game Versus Test Question ...
 

I'm waiting until the ball is touched again to call an illegal dribble violation. As bob jenkins pointed out, this is a "gray area" in the NFHS rules, and I may be wrong on a written test question regarding this situation.

Sometimes (often) you have to officiate the game. Sometimes (seldom) you have to take a written test. In theory they should have the same answer, but sometimes theory and reality don't agree.

Sometimes people want to complicate matters more than is necessary.

The test doesn't make that distinction. It assumes that the official has judged the subsequent act a dribble and wants us now to judge its legality.

+1

I Didn't Know That There Was Going To Be A Test Today ...
 

You've seen the test already? Can you send me a copy?

A1 dribbles into the front court and stops his/her dribble, holding the ball with two hands. Subsequently A1 fumbles the ball, which bounces twice on the floor. Without the ball being touched by any other player, A1 picks up the fumbled ball with both hands and then pushes the ball to the floor, at which point the official sounds his/her whistle and calls an illegal dribble violation on A1. Is the official correct?

In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are different.

Always Listen To bob ...
 

Cool.

yes

Playing Devil's Advocate ...
 

just another ref's answer seems to be correct by the written rule. So I guess a player can't legally make a "bad" bounce pass to a nearby teammate after picking up his/her fumbled ball in this situation?

Regarding the difference, in a real game (damn the rulebook definitions), between starting a dribble, and starting a pass, to borrow a phrase from Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart, "I know it when I see it".

Legal Pass or Illegal Dribble? (video)
 

So...what about this?


<iframe width="853" height="480" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/PySgkQkzy6g?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Ugly Play ...
 

As the announcer stated, "High bounce pass".

That's clearly a pass to me, but the motion sure looks the same. That's why I'm not inclined to call anything on the "double dribble" violations until the dribbler contacts the ball after the bounce.

SDF officiating makes this an easy play to deal with.

no

Bet Your House ???
 

The NFHS wants you to bet your house on the answer to this written test question:

Who loses their house?

Let's go to the written rule, and definition:

9-5: A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART. 1 A try for field goal.
ART. 2 A touch by an opponent.
ART. 3 A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by, another player.

4-15: ART. 1 A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times.
ART. 3 The dribble may be started by pushing, throwing or batting the ball to the floor before the pivot foot is lifted.

In the written test question, has the player pushed the ball to the floor once, and thus started a dribble? Yes.

In the written test question, has the player committed an illegal dribble violation? Yes.

In a real game, I'm waiting to see what happens after the ball hits the floor. If the player doesn't touch the ball again, then I'm calling it a pass, not a dribble, and I'm not calling the illegal dribble violation.

On the other hand, if the NFHS were holding a gun to my head, forcing me to bet my house on the correct answer, by the book, based on the written rule as it presently stands, to this question, I'm calling it an illegal dribble violation. I want to keep my house.

Wouldn't it be nice if the NFHS cleaned up this rule, and definition, to reflect what we, here in the trenches, call in a real game?

The rule clarifies when a dribble begins, assuming it's a dribble. Real world officiating requires the official to judge whether it's a dribble or a pass. We can't have our collective noses buried so deep into the book we can't tell the difference. Sometimes, we have to wait a second to see whether it's a pass or a dribble. IOW, as BNR stated, SDF.

Why Can't The NFHS Be So Clear ???
 

Bingo.