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-   -   legal move or not? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/97920-legal-move-not.html)

JRutledge Mon May 19, 2014 09:24pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 934422)
Legal? No. Ignored if trifling? Yes.

Do you call traveling in your D1 games when a player does this very scenario when squaring up to shoot?

I am certainly not a D1 official and will not speak for what one of them will actually do, but this was addressed by John Adams a few times over the years and he feels it should be called. I have never heard him make the suggestion that it matters if there is an advantage. I would agree with you if it is not obvious or we are splitting hairs, but this is usually pretty obvious to see and should be called IMO.

Peace

AremRed Mon May 19, 2014 09:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 934427)
Would you let shooters catch the ball and step where ever they want to without dribbling in before shooting the ball?

As Andy Dufresne says: "How can you be so obtuse?"

APG Mon May 19, 2014 09:48pm

Can't say I've seen players catching the ball with BOTH feet on the floor, then jump and land with the ball at any level with any regularity.

Raymond Mon May 19, 2014 09:48pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 934433)
As Andy Dufresne says: "How can you be so obtuse?"

Were you asking me my ruling on this question?:

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdray (Post 934362)
A1 receives a pass with both feet on the floor, jumps and lands simultaneously on both feet and then releases a shot. Is this a legal move or is it a travel?

One would have to be very obtuse for not knowing the obvious answer. ;)

bainsey Tue May 20, 2014 10:51am

Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 934422)
Legal? No. Ignored if trifling? Yes.

"Trifling" is a soccer officiating term. I've never heard it in basketball.

Pivot foot up + pivot foot down = travel.

Pantherdreams Tue May 20, 2014 11:11am

Move as described in OP = travel.

Complicating factors in games.

Player can have two feet on the floor and hop as they complete the initial catch without travelling ie. Determining when control is established.

Player can have one foot on the floor, hop onto two and shoot it without traveling. ie. Determining when control is established and if only 1 foot was on the floor making it a jump stop - but that now cannot pivot.

JRutledge Tue May 20, 2014 11:27am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 934473)
"Trifling" is a soccer officiating term. I've never heard it in basketball.

Pivot foot up + pivot foot down = travel.

It is more than a soccer term. It is a social term too. ;)

Peace

AremRed Tue May 20, 2014 11:32am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 934473)
"Trifling" is a soccer officiating term. I've never heard it in basketball.

Pivot foot up + pivot foot down = travel.

I guess the basketball equivalent is "incidental".

bainsey Tue May 20, 2014 12:15pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 934480)
I guess the basketball equivalent is "incidental".

I think they're mutually exclusive. "Trifiling" can and usually does involve the severity of contact, but hard contact can be "incidental." I've used "incidental" in soccer without any corrections (though that doesn't mean I'm right), but the only sport I've ever heard "trifling" in was soccer.

Just the same, this isn't even about contact. It's a about travelling, and hopping on two feet is cut and dry.

BillyMac Tue May 20, 2014 02:49pm

Traveling Is The Toughest Call ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams (Post 934478)
Player can have one foot on the floor, hop onto two and shoot it without traveling.

I believe that, in the play described above, said player can also legally jump off both feet to shoot the ball. N'est-ce pas?

just another ref Tue May 20, 2014 03:01pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 934480)
I guess the basketball equivalent is "incidental".

By rule, there are no incidental violations.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Tue May 20, 2014 11:23pm

I thought the very first post after the Thread Starting Post was the most concise and accurate post of this thread. :D

MTD, Sr.

Nevadaref Wed May 21, 2014 03:57am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 934545)
I thought the very first post after the Thread Starting Post was the most concise and accurate post of this thread. :D

MTD, Sr.

Except that it is not supported BY RULE. This is only a violation due to a Case Play ruling. I believe that is the point of the OP.

Camron Rust Wed May 21, 2014 01:40pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 934549)
Except that it is not supported BY RULE. This is only a violation due to a Case Play ruling. I believe that is the point of the OP.

Sure it is...

Quote:

ART. 1 . . . A player who catches the ball with both feet on the floor, may pivot, using either foot. When one foot is lifted, the other is the pivot foot.
That establishes that when a foot is lifted, the other is the pivot foot. it doesn't say ONLY one foot. So, if a player jumps from two feet, one foot has been lifted and the other is the pivot. You could say that the pivot is the last one to break contact with the floor (and it really will be one or the other if you look close enough). However, it doesn't really matter which was lifted first on a jump because the result is the same either way.

Then, Article 3 kicks in...

Quote:

ART. 3 . . . After coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot:
a. The pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the floor, before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal.
b. If the player jumps, neither foot may be returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal

Nevadaref Wed May 21, 2014 02:16pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 934594)
Sure it is...



That establishes that when a foot is lifted, the other is the pivot foot. it doesn't say ONLY one foot. So, if a player jumps from two feet, one foot has been lifted and the other is the pivot. You could say that the pivot is the last one to break contact with the floor (and it really will be one or the other if you look close enough). However, it doesn't really matter which was lifted first on a jump because the result is the same either way.

Then, Article 3 kicks in...

Camron,
By your reasoning a player could never execute a legal jump stop. That's not a practical argument for basketball. Officials deem both feet of a player to either land or leave the court simultaneously quite frequently during games.
So the point is that if a player has not yet established a pivot (either by landing or jumping with both feet simultaneously), then nothing which you have posted applies.


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