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-   -   Flop ??? (Video) (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/97730-flop-video.html)

Rich Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:47am

Easy solution. Call the foul and then whack the kid for the overenthusiastic clapping after the foul.

JugglingReferee Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:49am

I'd have a word with A2 as the ball was still in the administering official's hands. Failing that, I have a TC foul on A2 just as was called. If A HC comments, I respond with, "coach, the contact started during the dead ball. By the book, that's a technical foul."

Pantherdreams Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:49am

1) I'm ok with the foul as called.

2)THere is some incedental contact before the ball is at the throwers disposal but unless it gets to more than that its pretty standard fare.

3) THe offensive player pushed off.

4) Was there a sell job at the time? I couldn't really tell from the angle but the green players reaction after the fact tells me he was probably doing some acting too.

5) I like the call in the moment but watching the after effects feel like the green kid might have sold one so I'll be vigilant on him after this.

6) There is a comment made by a parent in the background about tackling in basketball which leads me to believe this incident isn't existing in a bubble which may mean less contact is being required at this point to earn a foul.

7) Some of these games kids play might be better if they were played in empty gyms.

jeremy341a Fri Apr 11, 2014 11:04am

Kid was going to push off, defender pulled the chair out and embellished as the offense pushed. I like the foul because if the offense doesn't push then the defenders embellishment wouldn't have worked.

just another ref Fri Apr 11, 2014 11:18am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeremy341a (Post 931436)
Kid was going to push off, defender pulled the chair out and embellished as the offense pushed. I like the foul because if the offense doesn't push then the defenders embellishment wouldn't have worked.

Kid was leaning on him, yes. Was going to push off? Maybe so, but I can't penalize him for what he was going to do. I agree that the defender pulled the chair out. (fell voluntarily) So did the contact by the offense gain him an advantage? I say no.

Camron Rust Fri Apr 11, 2014 11:43am

I believe this was a poor call. The offense did not push the defender. He was touching the defender, but that reaction didn't not match the action. The defender flopped.

ballgame99 Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:33pm

If the offense "pushed off" wouldn't his momentum go the opposite direction of the defender? If I push you with any force at all, you are going to go backwards and I am going to go in the direction I am pushing toward. The offensive player was leaning on the defense, which then flopped, and you see the offensive player's momentum continue toward the defense. I don't like this call at all, and the defenses clapping afterward could easily be seen as taunting.

There were probably some instances of pushes earlier in the game that could have resulted in warnings or even fouls, so the defense wanted to make sure and get this call.

Adam Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ballgame99 (Post 931450)
If the offense "pushed off" wouldn't his momentum go the opposite direction of the defender? If I push you with any force at all, you are going to go backwards and I am going to go in the direction I am pushing toward. The offensive player was leaning on the defense, which then flopped, and you see the offensive player's momentum continue toward the defense. I don't like this call at all, and the defenses clapping afterward could easily be seen as taunting.

There were probably some instances of pushes earlier in the game that could have resulted in warnings or even fouls, so the defense wanted to make sure and get this call.

He spent the 5 seconds prior to the throw in pushing the defender away by walking him down away from the thrower. His momentum was going to take him into the defender.

The defender finally had enough and ceased the resistance. Push on a wall, and let the wall fall down, you'll go down with it.

Same concept, IMO.

just another ref Fri Apr 11, 2014 01:09pm

He did a lot more than cease the resistance. Appears to me he dove backward and let out a yell to draw attention to himself.

Sharpshooternes Fri Apr 11, 2014 01:43pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 931452)
He did a lot more than cease the resistance. Appears to me he dove backward and let out a yell to draw attention to himself.

If I would have had my eyes on them the entire time, I would have had a flop and no call, but if I would have just seen it out of the corner of my eye, I would probably have bought it and called a foul.

jeremy341a Fri Apr 11, 2014 02:07pm

How much resistance is the defender supposed to put up as the offense uses two hands to shove him? Offense was pushing up the defense just embellished the contact. Unless the defense grabs his arms which you can not see in the video, it seem that the offense's arms extended tells the story. The reason the offense fell towards the defense is because the defense didn't hold the resistance the offense expected.

Adam Fri Apr 11, 2014 02:32pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 931452)
He did a lot more than cease the resistance. Appears to me he dove backward and let out a yell to draw attention to himself.

He fell backwards, and he did so with minimal contact, but I don't see where he's required to resist. As for the yell, it's irrelevant, IMO. I watched it without sound, and I still like the call (although I would have been fine with a no-call as well.)

just another ref Fri Apr 11, 2014 03:56pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 931463)
As for the yell, it's irrelevant, IMO.

It's relevant only in that it supports the idea that the whole thing was staged.

Adam Fri Apr 11, 2014 04:44pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 931474)
It's relevant only in that it supports the idea that the whole thing was staged.

Maybe, and I don't disagree that it was staged. The thing is, the offense opens himself up to this by shoving the defender down court. We tell players all the time to stop giving ground. He stops, and just allows himself to be pushed down. I'm ok with that.

Camron Rust Fri Apr 11, 2014 04:45pm

Was the offense putting some amount of pressure on him, sure. But that isn't a foul. The question that needs to be asked is whether the contact displaced the defender? To that question, the answer is no. There was no where near enough force in the contact that was there to displace the defender like that.

The sequence of actions/reactions was all wrong for the offensive player to have caused that result. He was applying just as much force (only slight) as the defender was applying in the opposite direction up to the time the defender chose to throw himself to the floor. The arms only extended because the defender removed the resistance, not because of a shove.

And for those that look at the action before the "shove", that is no different than a defender in the post giving ground to another player as the other player works for the shot...he willingly stepped backwards. It is a red herring, at best.


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