Guarding the Post

[Chippy4463]

Well ive been a lurker for awhile and have a question that I cant seem to find the answer for regarding Guarding in the post. I referee for an after school club for teenagers and there is one guy who is pretty good in the post. Well lately to slow him down defenders have been using there forearm as sort of a barricade to stop him from backing down, imagine trying to hold a door closed from numerous people trying to run in..Yes like that. now the post player says its a foul but the defenders say its legal.. Ive never seen anything like this but, figured somebody could shed some light on topic for me. It will be greatly appreciated by all parties involved. What is allowable for a post defender ?

[referee99]

SECTION 24 HANDS AND ARMS, LEGAL AND ILLEGAL USE
ART. 1 . . . It is legal to extend the arms vertically above the shoulders and need not be lowered to avoid contact with an opponent when the action of the opponent causes contact. This legal use of the arms and hands usually occurs when guarding the player making a throw-in, the player with the ball in pressing tactics and a player with the ball who is maneuvering to try for goal by pivoting, jumping, etc.
ART. 2 . . . It is legal use of hands to reach to block or slap the ball controlled by a dribbler or a player throwing for goal or a player holding it and accidentally hitting the hand of the opponent when it is in contact with the ball.
ART. 3 . . . It is legal to hold the hands and arms in front of the face or body for protection and to absorb force from an imminent charge by an opponent. This same protective use of the arms and hands occurs when a player who has set a screen outside the opponent’s visual field is about to be run into by the player being screened. The action, however, should be a recoil action rather than a pushing action.
ART. 4 . . . It is not legal to use hands and arms or hips and shoulders to force his/her way through a screen or to hold the screener and then to push him/her aside in order to maintain a guarding position relative to his/her opponent.
ART. 5 . . . It is not legal to use hands on an opponent which in any way inhibits the freedom of movement of the opponent or acts as an aid to a player in starting or stopping.
ART. 6 . . . It is not legal to extend the arms fully or partially in a position other than vertical so that the freedom of movement of an opponent is hindered when contact with the arms occurs. The extension of the elbows when the hands are on the hips or when the hands are held near the chest or when the arms are held more or less horizontally are examples of the illegal positions used.
ART. 7 . . . It is not legal to use the hand and/or forearm to prevent an opponent from attacking the ball during a dribble or when throwing for goal.
ART. 8 . . . It is not legal to swing arms and elbows excessively. This occurs when:
a. Arms and elbows are swung about while using the shoulders as pivots, and the speed of the extended arms and elbows is in excess of the rest of the body as it rotates on the hips or on the pivot foot.
b. The aggressiveness with which the arms and elbows are swung could cause injury to another player if contacted.
Using this description as a basis, an official will promptly and unhesitatingly rule such action with arms and elbows a violation.
ART. 9 . . . It is not legal to lock arms or grasp a teammate(s) in an effort to restrict the movement of an opponent.

[JRutledge]

The same rules apply for post as any other position on the floor in theory. You cannot put your hands on the ball handler to hold or direct an opponent. You cannot hold, push, grab, restrict and opponent and their movement. So a forearm to hold a player in place is illegal. Now will these get called without any consideration to other things? Not necessarily. But if you want to teach a player the right things, have them hold their position and move their feet. Any use of their arms or legs to contact and opponent is not legal on many levels.

I hope that helps a little, but I I would think to help you is to ask specific things that are either being called or not being called.

Peace

[JetMetFan]

The defenders are probably watching NCAA/NBA games and copying what they see. What's legal in those games isn't necessarily legal in a game officiated under HS/NFHS rules.

[bob jenkins]

All the above is true, but if the defender is using the arm within the defender's vertical space then it's (more likely to be) legal.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

The defenders are probably watching NCAA/NBA games and copying what they see. What's legal in those games isn't necessarily legal in a game officiated under HS/NFHS rules.

Not true when it comes to NCAA Men's games. The rules or philosophy is the exact same. Actually the NCAA Men's side put in their rules what is actually illegal when it comes to hand-checking, where the NF has only implied what is illegal. And nothing is different in the post as in the perimeter when it comes to the post in NCAA Men's' games.

Peace

[jeremy341a]

Note though that the post player "backing down" may not be legal which is what is causing the defenders to feel the need to use their forearm to try and prevent it.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by jeremy341a

Note though that the post player "backing down" may not be legal which is what is causing the defenders to feel the need to use their forearm to try and prevent it.

Exactly. If you're letting the offense get away with pushing into the defender by backing them down, that's your main problem here.

[Rob1968]

This may be helpful:

2012-13 NFHS Rules Book POINTS OF EMPHASIS

4. Guidelines to enforce illegal contact. Escalating fight situations can often be traced back to illegal contact not being properly enforced and penalized.
a. Hand checking. Any tactic using hands or arms that allows a player on offense or defense to control the movement of an opposing player.
Examples of illegal contact are:
1) Both hands on an opposing player
2) Jabbing a hand or forearm on an opponent.
3) Continuous contact by a hand or forearm on an opponent.
b. Post play. Any tactic using hands, arms or body to control the movement of an opposing player.
Examples of illegal post play:
1) Hooking by the offensive player
2) Pushing, holding or slapping an opponent
3) Dislodging an opponent by using a leg or knee to the rear of an opponent
4) Dislodging an opponent by backing them down.

Please, note that a. 3) seems to define an armbar as illegal contact.
and that b.4) directly mentions "backing them (an opponent) down."

After all that, the judgement of the covering official comes into play, and may vary accordingly. . .sometimes you just have to officiate the game. . .

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Not true when it comes to NCAA Men's games. The rules or philosophy is the exact same. Actually the NCAA Men's side put in their rules what is actually illegal when it comes to hand-checking, where the NF has only implied what is illegal. And nothing is different in the post as in the perimeter when it comes to the post in NCAA Men's' games.

Peace

Sorry, Jeff. Every now and then I forget where NCAAM & NCAAW go their different ways. This was one where I thought the guidelines were the same. I have since taken a look at the men's rule book.

[Chippy4463]

Originally Posted by Adam

Exactly. If you're letting the offense get away with pushing into the defender by backing them down, that's your main problem here.

Im sorry if I sound stupid here but the offensive player is not allowed to back down ?

[Chippy4463]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

All the above is true, but if the defender is using the arm within the defender's vertical space then it's (more likely to be) legal.

Its hard to explain really just imagine shaq backing down kobe and kobes places himself with all is strength to stop shaw from moving

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Chippy4463

Its hard to explain really just imagine shaq backing down kobe and kobes places himself with all is strength to stop shaw from moving

It is not necessary for Kobe to use any strength. If he establishes himself between Shaq and the basket and Shaq backs over him, the foul is on Shaq.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Chippy4463

Im sorry if I sound stupid here but the offensive player is not allowed to back down ?

If the defense is displaced, then it's a foul on the offense. If the defense gives way, then it's legal. Deciding which is which is wny we get paid the big bucks.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

Please, note that a. 3) seems to define an armbar as illegal contact.

While an arm bar is illegal, I don't think the OP is an arm bar -- it's a collapsed arm (at least in my mind's eye).