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make the first call and the second never happens.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Welpe (Post 922311)

Interesting.

I'm speaking HS here but I'd have a flagrant on both plays. That kick was intentional and completely unnecessary.

Agreed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by deecee (Post 922329)

make the first call and the second never happens.

Naturally. The kick is a big miss, imho.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BatteryPowered (Post 922328)

Since when do intentions come into play? Rarely does a player "intend" to commit a foul...it happens, but most are just normally occuring during the course of play.

I also do not care about the momentum of a player. Suppose A1 is running down the floor full speed toward B1 who clearly has LGP standing (NOT MOVING) half way between the FT line and the basket. A1 leaps into the air and releases a finger roll attempt then plows into B1. Are you going to ignore the contact? Clearly the momentum of A1 carried him through the air and into the stationary B1.

I would say "intentions" come into play when you are calling an "intentional" foul typically. Now I realize an NCAA FF1 is different to an NFHS intentional, so you are probably right as it relates to an NCAA FF1. I'm honestly not aware what all that rule covers. Maybe intentions is a bad term, I'm saying it wasn't reckless, but was just a consequence of a hustle play gone wrong. Whether I should consider that or not may be a good question. The officials here went to replay and called it a FF1, so I'm probably wrong. That's just what I see.

And I'm not saying the momentum excuses the foul at all. In fact I clearly said it was a foul. I'm just saying his momentum took his foot where it wasn't supposed to go vs. him kicking someone. Again I was getting more to the intention aspect of it all. In a HS game do I have rules justification to call that an "intentional" foul? I don't know, I'm asking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ballgame99 (Post 922349)

The reason the NCAA went to flagrant 1/2 terminology was precisely because people think that intentional fouls always require intent. That is simply not the case. You can intend to make a basketball play, but in doing so cause excessive contact and still commit an intentional foul.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ballgame99 (Post 922349)

..
... Again I was getting more to the intention aspect of it all. In a HS game do I have rules justification to call that an "intentional" foul? I don't know, I'm asking.

In HS, at a minimum I'm calling it an intentional for excessive contact.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 922355)

In HS, at a minimum I'm calling it an intentional for excessive contact.

Same for me on both levels regarding excessive contact. Once I get the IF/F1 out of the way I'm talking with my partners about whether the kick should be an F/F2 and in the NCAA game if there's a monitor we're taking a look.

As has been said, if the kick is called the second call probably doesn't have to be made.