Some Nights

[j51969]

[QUOTE=BryanV21;915112]This happened a few times before the coach for Team B said anything...

1. A1 attempts a three-pointer.

2. B1 turns and proceeds to box out A1/shooter, but while doing so backs up into A1 (after A1 had already returned to the floor)... knocking A1 down.

3. B1 is called for a pushing foul (not shooting, as A1 is no longer an "airborne shooter" after returning to the floor).
After a couple times calling this, the coach for Team B politely asks me why it was a foul. She says that her team was simply boxing out the shooter. I explain that the former shooter has the right to the spot where she lands, and Team B's defender is not allowed to displace the former shooter from that spot.

I made this exact call last night in a FR Tournanment game. Oddly enough girls seem to be the one who do this the most. However, this was a boys game .

A1 shoots a three on side right next to coach (on defense) in first half. Player lands, defender turns around to box out and butts him right in the stomach. Player didn't fall but was clearly displaced. Partner said basket was good, I report. Coach says I can't call that foul because he was only boxing out, and the offensive player had returned to the floor .

[Pantherdreams]

[QUOTE=j51969;915113]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

This happened a few times before the coach for Team B said anything...

1. A1 attempts a three-pointer.

2. B1 turns and proceeds to box out A1/shooter, but while doing so backs up into A1 (after A1 had already returned to the floor)... knocking A1 down.

3. B1 is called for a pushing foul (not shooting, as A1 is no longer an "airborne shooter" after returning to the floor).
After a couple times calling this, the coach for Team B politely asks me why it was a foul. She says that her team was simply boxing out the shooter. I explain that the former shooter has the right to the spot where she lands, and Team B's defender is not allowed to displace the former shooter from that spot.

I made this exact call last night in a FR Tournanment game. Oddly enough girls seem to be the one who do this the most. However, this was a boys game .

A1 shoots a three on side right next to coach (on defense) in first half. Player lands, defender turns around to box out and butts him right in the stomach. Player didn't fall but was clearly displaced. Partner said basket was good, I report. Coach says I can't call that foul because he was only boxing out, and the offensive player had returned to the floor .

In all honesty I struggle with this one. Not because when it happens its not a foul, but because the defense is basically doing the same thing all over the floor. THe only difference tends to be that the shooter is making no attempt to rebound so they are not bracing or preparing for contact so they end up discplaced and knocked down.

I still call the foul but I get the uhoh feeling everytime I do because i know as a crew we are passing on the exact same action/ even more intense contact on boxouts inside where kids are wanting to battle.

Just on observation not an attempt to hi-jack the thread.

[j51969]

When players are boxing out, or jockeying for position on a rebound (to me) is completely different contact. Protecting the shooter who is defenseless just before, during, and after a shoot is a must.

[BryanV21]

[QUOTE=Pantherdreams;915115]

Originally Posted by j51969

In all honesty I struggle with this one. Not because when it happens its not a foul, but because the defense is basically doing the same thing all over the floor. THe only difference tends to be that the shooter is making no attempt to rebound so they are not bracing or preparing for contact so they end up discplaced and knocked down.

I still call the foul but I get the uhoh feeling everytime I do because i know as a crew we are passing on the exact same action/ even more intense contact on boxouts inside where kids are wanting to battle.

Just on observation not an attempt to hi-jack the thread.

That's true.

I guess it's determining displacement that's the issue. In the situation I provide, it's obvious displacement as the player is knocked to the floor. But when nobody is clearly knocked out of position, it's tough to call.

And I agree with what j51969 said... we should give extra care to defenseless players. Kind of like in football, where calls regarding a defenseless player are much more evident.

[Rich1]

Had a similar incident with the false time out. I think the coach was yelling "side-out" which is a play they run around her but maybe it was "five out". Either way, I just reacted and blew the whistle. Then I realized that 1) he did not call time out and 2) his team didn't have posession so it would not have been a time out anyway. We all got a good laugh at it and we inbounded the ball at the POI for inadvertant whistle. I try to listen a lot more careful now when I hear a team running any kind of play with the word "out" in it.

On another note, the blocking out fouls are getting ridiculous, especially in the post. In every game I see players set up to block out and then back the other player way out of position. Eventually, I get that frustrated question from the coach "then how am I supposed to teach my kids to block out"? My answer is simple, there is a difference between "blocking out" and "backing out". The first is legan and the second displaces the other player putting him at a disadvatage and should be called every time. Hit it early and it will clean itself up.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

The coach thinks this is ridiculous and proceeds to turn around, look at her assistants, and laugh while holding out her arms...

THIS is when she earned the T. You waited too long. Don't take this.

[MD Longhorn]

Boxing out is the legal act of taking a position and keeping it. It is not pushing aside another player who has their own legally obtained position.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

THIS is when she earned the T. You waited too long. Don't take this.

There was a time, maybe like last season, where I would have agreed with you. But now, by the time she turned her back, I would have had my full attention back towards the court and wouldn't be paying her any mind to know what she is doing.

[Rich1]

Different refs have different tolerance/patience levels. I know some who are very quick with the T, some who will talk it out (or warn) a few times first, and some who seem to be VERY thick skinned. For me, it depends on what I feel the coach's intent was and whether or not it was directly directed (grammer??) at me. If the coach vented some steam but was not mocking me or trying to work up the bench or crowd, I might be patient. BUT, if she was mocking, calling the crews credibility into question, or was looking directly at me and waved me off like that I probably would have gone to the T without hesitation.

One of the things I love about refing this sport is how often judgement comes into play. I know we also have rules and must go by the book (so to speak), but every night we face situations where we get to interpret what is happening and make decisions based on knowledge, experience and many other factors. I'm always fascinated by that.

[BryanV21]

If the game was closer, then perhaps I would have t'd her up earlier. But her team was down big at the time, so I chalked it up to her simply being frustrated with the game and not me or my partners.

Of course, it got to a point where I could no longer ignore it, but in a situation like that I give the coach the benefit of the doubt.

During the whole "five out"/"time out" thing I wanted to give her a 2nd "t" and toss her, but I didn't feel like dragging the game out any longer.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Pushing aside another player who has their own legally obtained position.

What is displacement?

Did I get it right? Do I move on to Final Jeopardy?