Post move

[onetime1]

8th grade girls basketball. Player receives ball in post and squares to basket. Immediately takes ball and uses it to provide force and pushes defensive player away then shoots 6 foot shot which goes in. Can this be player control even though no contact has occurred?

[JRutledge]

All fouls that are not unsporting, require contact.

That should answer your question.

Peace

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by onetime1

8th grade girls basketball. Player receives ball in post and squares to basket. Immediately takes ball and uses it to provide force and pushes defensive player away then shoots 6 foot shot which goes in. Can this be player control even though no contact has occurred?

My take: By a strict reading of the rule, no. In all practical senses, yes.

And, it's been discussed here with several on each side of this.

[APG]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

My take: By a strict reading of the rule, no. In all practical senses, yes.

And, it's been discussed here with several on each side of this.

Pushing defender away with ball?

I agree with Bob.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by onetime1

8th grade girls basketball. Player receives ball in post and squares to basket. Immediately takes ball and uses it to provide force and pushes defensive player away then shoots 6 foot shot which goes in. Can this be player control even though no contact has occurred?

It should be a PC. A1 created illegal contact that put B1 at a disadvantage. If A1 was driving to the basket and hit B1 with the ball as part of the habitual motion of her shot that's one thing. In the OP, A1 purposely used the ball to create contact to give herself an advantage.

[Adam]

Put me in the "agree with bob" camp.

[BillyMac]

Rule 4 includes a definition of a foul that describes contact, in general, not just body to body contact:

A personal foul is a player foul which involves illegal contact with
an opponent while the ball is live, which hinders an opponent from performing
normal defensive and offensive movements.

However, once one gets to Rule 10, the various types of illegal contact all involve various types of body to body contact, e.g., hand, leg, body, arm.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Adam

Put me in the "agree with bob" camp.

Put me in the "agree with Adam" camp....which also puts me in the "agree with bob" camp.

[JRutledge]

Put me in the not agreeing with Bob, Adam and Camron camp. You cannot call a foul IMO without contact from another person's body part. Someone can take the ball away or knock it out of your hand. I am not calling a foul just because the ball was used to cause contact.

Peace

[johnny d]

While I agree in principle with what JRut says, I vaguely recall a college clarification or ruling coming directly from Art Heyland a few years ago when the swinging the elbows rule first came out indicating that a FF1/intentional foul should be called when the offensive player contacts the defensive player with the ball, above the defensive players shoulders, while excessively swinging their elbows, even though there was not contact with the offensive players arms. I can see how one can extrapolate that ruling to the situation described in the op, especially considering there is not anything written specifically about that type of play.

[JRutledge]

That is an interesting point Johnny, but I do not believe this conversation was about NCAA rules. And I would have to see that ruling to be comfortable making that kind of call, certainly at that level.

Peace

[JetMetFan]

My high school interpreter has this as a PC. I’d be interested to learn what other interpreters say about it.

[just another ref]

4-45-5: The offensive player............may not "clear out" or cause contact within the defender's vertical plane, which is a foul.


Clearing out by using the ball is still clearing out.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

All fouls that are not unsporting, require contact.

That should answer your question.

There was contact, from the ball. I totally agree though. No contact with the ball, no foul.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by AremRed

There was contact, from the ball. I totally agree though. No contact with the ball, no foul.

Well then get in the weight room or take the darn ball away.

Peace