Can We Please Try This Again ???

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by HawkeyeCubP

Most changes (and content emphases) are discussed at regional NCAA meetings, and some through postings on the Arbiter, and I'd postulate that many juco and DIII officials (and DII officials who aren't mandated to attend) at least know one or more D1 or DII officials who have attended those meetings (or run into them at camps with the opportunity of asking them questions), so posing that question would have a pretty reasonable chance at getting a first , second, or third-hand response on it, in my opinion.

I've been to an NCAA clinic. It was run by John Adams. There is a limited amount of time. I doubt a 3-word phrase in the CCA manual would be something NCAA-Women's coordinator would spend anytime discussing.

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I've been to an NCAA clinic. It was run by John Adams. There is a limited amount of time. I doubt a 3-word phrase in the CCA manual would be something NCAA-Women's coordinator would spend anytime discussing.

So have I, and I've heard Debbie Williamson speak, lead, and present on multiple topics and items from the rule book and manual - from the broader topic/issue down to minutia, and your assumption is essentially suggesting that any approved mechanic carries any less weight than others in the manual - and I respectfully disagree with that - as I can only speak to the women's side - and it's, as many have pointed out here over the last 5 or so years, much more strict-mechanic-oriented - some have even used the term "robotic," I believe.

[Robert E. Harrison]

You have the run of the baseline.

It is not a baseline it is an endline. The baseline in basketball refers to the line at the bottom of the rectangle on the backboard.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Robert E. Harrison

You have the run of the baseline. It is not a baseline it is an endline. The baseline in basketball refers to the line at the bottom of the rectangle on the backboard.

Thanks Bobby, I can call you Bobby, right? The only people who call be Billy are officials, my mother, and my aunt. Nobody else calls me Billy, it's always Bill. I've always been Billy on the basketball court, as a player, and now, as an official. It's a fun name, that makes me feel young. It's a game? Right?

Technically, you are 100% correct. Baselines are in baseball. We've had this discussion, usually in fun, many times, on this Forum. This is hairsplitting to the uber extreme, to the nth degree.

We've also fiddled around with "calling" a timeout. Does it mean "request" a timeout, or does it mean "grant" a timeout?

I like to catch people on "midcourt line", there is no longer such a thing. There used to be one that separated the forecourt from the midcourt, at the 28 foot hashmark, but it's no longer there, because there is no longer a closely guarded rule that uses that hashmark. It's a "division line".

I believe that there's another semantics issue that occasionally makes it way onto the Forum, but I can't think of it right now. I'm sure that another Forum member can refresh my memory.

These are a little too hairsplitting for me, but thanks anyway.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Robert E. Harrison

You have the run of the baseline.

It is not a baseline it is an endline. The baseline in basketball refers to the line at the bottom of the rectangle on the backboard.

So you are saying it will confuse players if we tell them they can run the baseline?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

So are you saying will confuse players if we tell them they can run the baseline?

They might run to first base.

[JRutledge]

And as I said before, if people are that confused by "end line, base line," they have bigger problems.

I agree you should say the correct things, but this is the vernacular of the game that most players, coaches and fans are going to use. It is OK IMO to speak their language. You start correcting everyone because they did not use the perfect term, you will confuse them even more in many minor situations.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And as I said before, if people are that confused by "end line, base line," they have bigger problems.

I agree you should say the correct things, but this is the vernacular of the game that most players, coaches and fans are going to use. It is OK IMO to speak their language. You start correcting everyone because they did not use the perfect term, you will confuse them even more in many minor situations.

Peace

I agree. Everyone knows exactly what we mean because they use "baseline" too, and it doesn't perpetuate any myths.

I use "end line" but occasionally slip and say "baseline." I've never had anyone say "Where's that?"

If the actual "baseline" in basketball had any real significance, I'd probably have a different opinion, but it doesn't, so I don't.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I agree you should say the correct things.

Wow?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Adam

I use "end line" but occasionally slip and say "baseline.".

Me too. But at least we're trying.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Wow?

I really love how you take little things and try to make them into things out of context. You are really good at doing that. If you want to debate the issue, what your little list says has nothing to do with right or wrong, but personal preference to things that have nothing to do with the rules. Just like I said, your "Don't move" issue is more about your personal preference and nothing to do with the understanding of a rule just like the difference between "End line" and "Base line." Players think the opposite of moving on the end line is not moving on the end line. Saying "Designated spot" does not dramatically change that from a player's point of view. And one coach in some place that overreacted to words does not change that fact.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

What your little list says has nothing to do with right or wrong, but personal preference.

Add a third choice: Wrong. Personal preference. Add misleading.

“He wasn't set” Misleading. Could be legally moving backward.
"On the floor" Misleading. Could be in the act of shooting while on the floor.
"Don't move" Misleading. Wrong, by rule.
"Hold your spots" Misleading. Wrong, by rule.
"You can't stand behind him" Misleading. Wrong, by rule.
"Everybody get behind the division line" Misleading. Wrong, by rule.
"Let it hit the rim" Misleading. Wrong, by rule.
"Over the back" Personal preference.
"Reaching in" Personal preference.
"Coach, you have one timeout left" Personal preference.
"Sit down" Wrong, by rule.
"You have to take out your earrings" Personal preference.

Four personal preferences. Some agreement? Some common ground?

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I agree you should say the correct things,

Your words, not mine. I like the "should", much better than "must". More common ground?

[JRutledge]

My issue with this list mostly is that you are trying to lump situations where rules do not support any language with quick communication tools that convey something a coach or player would understand. I do not equate "Being set, over the back" or "reaching in" with "Don't move" or "Sit down."

One group actually misrepresents the rule and others conveys what a player or coach already understands. Players know they can either run the end line or they have to not move. What we call it is really irrelevant. And many players ask you, "Can I move." They are not asking if they have a designated spot as their vernacular. Maybe they do where you are from, but not in my experience working HS or college ball. So you tell them what they can understand and because people do not always talk in the same way, you communicate to people. Just like I would speak one way in a professional setting like on a job or school setting and speak in a completely different way when I am hanging out with friends or people I have a personal relationship. Participants have a different language which is why if someone says "Baseline" no one is going to care. Just like players might speak to certain officials using slang and youth language that is not perfect English or has another meaning. And when I am working games in certain settings, I use terms the participants use to them that I would not use to my officiating partners.

We are just never going to agree on this list in total no matter how many times you keep posting it. I am fine with that reality. It is time for you to get over it as well.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not equate "Being set, over the back" or "reaching in" with "Don't move" or "Sit down."

Nor do I. Along with the others I have listed, and some that I haven't, they all fall within a spectrum of statements, some that should probably never be stated during a game, some that are more of matter of semantics, good for some, bad for others, and some that are just hairsplitting to the extreme and that really shouldn't matter if they're stated in the context of a real game, they're just exercises in rulebook semantics (i.e., endline, or baseline, that I'm not putting on my list, or in my training article).

We're just debating where to put each statement on the spectrum, and I can certainly understand that, especially in the context of "When in Rome ..." that all of us won't agree. Officials, not just you, and me, will differ in their own interpretations of such statements, and where they belong on this spectrum.

As I stated in an earlier post, I have a problem with the term midcourt line, instead of the more correct division line, or halfcourt line (I don't even like halfcourt line). However, I would never question any official using such a term, other than yanking their chain in fun. There are a million more important things to worry about in a basketball game than whether, or not, an official uses the term midcourt line, halfcourt line, or division line. I have similar feeling about endline, and baseline. You have your own feelings about some of the items on my list. Other officials will have their own opinions about items on my list that differ from both your opinions, and mine.

Variety is the spice of life. Peace.

[bob jenkins]

Here we go again.