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-   -   Foul During Free Throw (Fool the Official) (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/95666-foul-during-free-throw-fool-official.html)

Adam Mon Jul 29, 2013 07:17pm
Anyone else consider an intentional (FF1) if they catch this?

Raymond Mon Jul 29, 2013 08:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 901134)
Yes, the T could have helped out, but where was the L in this play. He definitely should have got this play before the C made his call.

That said, BadNews, is that really Al? When was this game played? Al and I are good friends and have known each other for 20 years. There is not better person with regard to the NFHS and NCAA Men's/Women's rules than Al. He can tell you what year a rule was changed and from what to what it was changed and can tell you the Rule, Section, and Article that was changed, all without climbing up into his attic like I have to do.

MTD, Sr.
Yes Mark, most definitely is Al. I've never worked a game with him but I've been to a few camps where he was a speaker and/or observing.

I'm assuming this was in the last couple years as I'm pretty sure I know the Lead. It's a D2 PSAC game at Slippery Rock.

JetMetFan Mon Jul 29, 2013 08:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam (Post 901148)
Anyone else consider an intentional (FF1) if they catch this?
You mean so I could call that and the T on Black's head coach? Nope.

There's nothing there in NCAA or NFHS that raises that to the level of FF1/Intentional.

Multiple Sports Mon Jul 29, 2013 09:40pm
Stop the LoveFest.....
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 901153)
Yes Mark, most definitely is Al. I've never worked a game with him but I've been to a few camps where he was a speaker and/or observing.

I'm assuming this was in the last couple years as I'm pretty sure I know the Lead. It's a D2 PSAC game at Slippery Rock.
BNR -

See what you have started.....now everyone will be talking active eyes active feet and a staggered stance !!!!!!

:D:D:D:D

Adam Mon Jul 29, 2013 09:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JetMetFan (Post 901155)
You mean so I could call that and the T on Black's head coach? Nope.

There's nothing there in NCAA or NFHS that raises that to the level of FF1/Intentional.
I disagree. To me, it's the definition of intentional, and it's unsporting in nature (to boot). He's intentionally pulling an opponent to force a violation. It's not basketball. Call that intentional, and he takes that a$$hat grin off his face.

Not saying I would do it in real time, but I think I'd regret not doing it afterwards.

JetMetFan Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam (Post 901160)
I disagree. To me, it's the definition of intentional, and it's unsporting in nature (to boot). He's intentionally pulling an opponent to force a violation. It's not basketball. Call that intentional, and he takes that a$$hat grin off his face.

Not saying I would do it in real time, but I think I'd regret not doing it afterwards.
I wouldn't regret it. Calling a FF1/intentional there would open a gigantic can of worms. Do we start calling FF1/intentional fouls when we see a kid clamp down on the arm of an opponent so he can't get a rebound? If it's a Stevie Wonder call that' really egregious by all means do it. This isn't a Stevie Wonder call as evidenced by the fact some members didn't even notice it on the video at first glance.

The only regret is the crew not catching the hold when it took place.

HawkeyeCubP Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JetMetFan (Post 901161)
...clamp down on the arm of an opponent so he can't get a rebound...
That's exactly where I went, and I'll go a big plus one on that line of extrapolation - at least insomuch as when a player clamps and then acts like they're the one being fouled during that rebound attempt.

I also think that 1) I'd prefer to get a quick violation on white here instead of the foul, and 2) the ensuing throw-in should be on the other side of the lane if we go foul - or violation with no throw to follow.

Bad Zebra Tue Jul 30, 2013 09:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 901143)
What violation has he committed?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 901147)
A foul is not the same thing as a violation. Basketball Rules 101.
I contend all the nonsense began with a violation by white 30...9-1-3g. Look at :05 mark in the video.

Camron Rust Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Zebra (Post 901187)
I contend all the nonsense began with a violation by white 30...9-1-3g. Look at :05 mark in the video.
And what about that is even a violation?

Bad Zebra Tue Jul 30, 2013 11:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 901201)
And what about that is even a violation?
White 30's left foot is clearly outside the prescribed boundries of his free throw space (also noted by JMF in post #10)...emphasized by the fact that he is more or less pushing the opponent with his butt as well.

Camron Rust Tue Jul 30, 2013 11:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Zebra (Post 901204)
White 30's left foot is clearly outside the prescribed boundries of his free throw space (also noted by JMF in post #10)...emphasized by the fact that he is more or less pushing the opponent with his butt as well.
Clearly outside of a spaced defined by a line you can't even see on the video? That line is barely visible once the players clear the area with no shoes/legs obstructing your view. You just can't tell if he is or is not out of his space. The most you can be sure of is that he is near the boundary.

And his butt means absolutely nothing in the context of the violation. A foul, maybe. But not a violation.

Bad Zebra Tue Jul 30, 2013 04:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 901216)
Clearly outside of a spaced defined by a line you can't even see on the video? That line is barely visible once the players clear the area with no shoes/legs obstructing your view. You just can't tell if he is or is not out of his space. The most you can be sure of is that he is near the boundary.
I disagree. Enlarge to full screen and you can see the player put his left foot ON the lane space boundry line. I'll agree the butt-push is irrelevant in terms of a violation.

Camron Rust Tue Jul 30, 2013 11:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Zebra (Post 901236)
I disagree. Enlarge to full screen and you can see the player put his left foot ON the lane space boundary line. I'll agree the butt-push is irrelevant in terms of a violation.
I did enlarge to full screen in the highest resolution available in that video on a pretty good size monitor.You can see that the foot is very close and maybe on the line, but no more. To claim otherwise is simply not supportable by the video.


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