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-   Basketball (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/)
-   -   Another DVBOA play (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/95415-another-dvboa-play.html)

Raymond Mon Jul 01, 2013 03:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 899091)
Why not both?

I'm simply asking if the rule can be read and understood a different way. I read all the case plays involving 4-23-1, and none of them explain whether "extending arm, hip, leg, etc. into the opponents path" means "extending those extremities after the dribblers path takes him into the defenders extremity" or "extending those extremities before the dribblers path takes him into the defenders extremity".

If the first, then the call would be a block/hold/illegal use of hands. If the latter, the call would not penalize a legal defender.
"Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent...."

It's also a foul if a vertical defender brings his arms down in front of him and the shooter jumps and contacts the defender's arms.

Defenders are entitled to the verticle space within their body width.

bob jenkins Mon Jul 01, 2013 03:22pm
It's the "cylinder of verticality" ;)

scrounge Mon Jul 01, 2013 04:51pm
Can't really see well from this angle, but it seems that B42 leans into shooter's path and tries to close off the opening.

BillyMac Mon Jul 01, 2013 05:52pm
Bravo ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 899075)
My nomination for "Image O' The Month".

Adam Mon Jul 01, 2013 07:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 899091)
Why not both?

I'm simply asking if the rule can be read and understood a different way.
Sure, it can be read and understood differently, but you really don't want to be a lone ranger with your interpretation.

BillyMac Tue Jul 02, 2013 06:03am
Tempting, Very Tempting ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam (Post 899121)
You really don't want to be a lone ranger with your interpretation.
You guys are really trying to get me suspended from the Forum (again). Well, I'm not taking the bait (this time). I've posted too many off topic posts lately, so I need to reign it back a little.

grunewar Tue Jul 02, 2013 06:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 899128)
You guys are really trying to get me suspended from the Forum (again).
You don't need our help for that...... ;)

JRutledge Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 899128)
You guys are really trying to get me suspended from the Forum (again). Well, I'm not taking the bait (this time). I've posted too many off topic posts lately, so I need to reign it back a little.
How about stop making everything a joke when people are trying to have a serious discussion or debate? We do not need a picture for everything.

Peace

OKREF Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:56am
42 looks like he leans and sticks out his knee/leg. Block.

Camron Rust Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by OKREF (Post 899147)
42 looks like he leans and sticks out his knee/leg. Block.
I just don't see that. At most, 42's feet are 12-16" apart. That is a pretty normal stance. I don't think he could have been positioned any more legally.

And regarding the push from behind that others have mentioned. I have nothing on that. Yes, it happened, but it was just a split second before the collision and had no effect on the play. The dribbler/driver was going to crash into the other two defenders with or without that extra nudge and that is the play to judge.

JugglingReferee Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:30pm
I also believe that 42's knee was outside his cylinder.

I do see the push that was mentioned by multiple previous posters. I wouldn't be surprised if that one is missed or even not called because it's effect was immaterial and minor in comparison to the knee-to-knee contact.

I'm leaning to the block rather than the PC. I don't think a no-call here is correct.

Camron Rust Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JugglingReferee (Post 899153)
I also believe that 42's knee was outside his cylinder.

I do see the push that was mentioned by multiple previous posters. I wouldn't be surprised if that one is missed or even not called because it's effect was immaterial and minor in comparison to the knee-to-knee contact.

I'm leaning to the block rather than the PC. I don't think a no-call here is correct.
Regardless of anything else, I agree with that.

OKREF Wed Jul 03, 2013 06:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 899152)
I just don't see that. At most, 42's feet are 12-16" apart. That is a pretty normal stance. I don't think he could have been positioned any more legally.

And regarding the push from behind that others have mentioned. I have nothing on that. Yes, it happened, but it was just a split second before the collision and had no effect on the play. The dribbler/driver was going to crash into the other two defenders with or without that extra nudge and that is the play to judge.
I agree he does get there, I just see him move his right knee out to the right. I don't see a push at all. The trailing defender does get his arm out, but any contact happens after the crash. I also agree this isn't a pass.

deecee Thu Jul 04, 2013 08:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 899152)
I just don't see that. At most, 42's feet are 12-16" apart. That is a pretty normal stance. I don't think he could have been positioned any more legally.

And regarding the push from behind that others have mentioned. I have nothing on that. Yes, it happened, but it was just a split second before the collision and had no effect on the play. The dribbler/driver was going to crash into the other two defenders with or without that extra nudge and that is the play to judge.
I do disagree with officiating based on what will/may happen. The order of events are push then crash. Whether or not the ball handler was going to crash into the defenders is immaterial IMO.

rsl Thu Jul 04, 2013 09:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by brainbrian (Post 899039)
NCAA 10-1-8 "A dribbler shall neither charge into nor contact an opponent in the dribbler’s path nor attempt to dribble between two opponents or between an opponent and a boundary, unless the space is sufficient to provide a reasonable chance for the dribbler to pass through without contact."

I know NFHS has a similar rule and I do not think the offensive player had enough space to make it between the two defenders.
Here is the NFHS rule.

Rule: 4-7-2
c. There must be reasonable space between two defensive players or a defensive player and a boundary line to allow the dribbler to continue in his/her path. If there is less than 3 feet of space, the dribbler has the greater responsibility for the contact.

This seems like the poster play for this rule, unless you call the push first.


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