Latest Version Of The Most Misunderstood Basketball Rules ...

[potato]

this is the reason i posted the scenario since it's not as clear cut as normal end dribble.

i believe FIBA & NBA both mention the rule that there is no limit on how many steps taken per dribble and dribble ends when the ball "REST" on hand.

i'm not an official so by looking at the 2 clauses i see it as the ball comes to rest only when the player holds the ball with both hands in this case i.e step no.2 (where he established pivot foot) even though he took a step while ball on hand before holding it, but if that is the case won't it be possible to take few more steps if he wasn't being called for palming?

i understand there is a black & white written rule and then there is this "rule of thumb" standard practice for officials. and i believe more than 2 steps after a dribble is considered a travel as a rule of thumb as someone posted before?

i also understand the rule book is not perfect and doesn't cover many grey areas especially when it comes down to modern play style.

from rule of thumb i would say the player established pivot while he gathers in the step no.1 (which makes 360spin move illegal) but from the written book i say he established pivot only when he held the ball (but this will allow exploits for multiple steps before holding the ball), so i just want to know how you officials would call the 2 scenarios. that is all.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

You're not understanding. It's a judgment call based on when the official determined that the dribble ended. And the NBA has different rules regarding what a player can do with his feet after he gathers the ball. You are not going to get a cut-n-dry, black-n-white answer to your hypotheticals.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by potato

this is the reason i posted the scenario since it's not as clear cut as normal end dribble.

i believe FIBA & NBA both mention the rule that there is no limit on how many steps taken per dribble and dribble ends when the ball "REST" on hand.

i'm not an official so by looking at the 2 clauses i see it as the ball comes to rest only when the player holds the ball with both hands in this case i.e step no.2 (where he established pivot foot) even though he took a step while ball on hand before holding it, but if that is the case won't it be possible to take few more steps if he wasn't being called for palming?

i understand there is a black & white written rule and then there is this "rule of thumb" standard practice for officials. and i believe more than 2 steps after a dribble is considered a travel as a rule of thumb as someone posted before?

i also understand the rule book is not perfect and doesn't cover many grey areas especially when it comes down to modern play style.

from rule of thumb i would say the player established pivot while he gathers in the step no.1 (which makes 360spin move illegal) but from the written book i say he established pivot only when he held the ball (but this will allow exploits for multiple steps before holding the ball), so i just want to know how you officials would call the 2 scenarios. that is all.

I have no idea how to interpret your pictures.

Two hands is not required to consider the dribble ended. Players end the dribble with one hand all the time. Once we consider the player to be holding the ball, the dribble is ended and the pivot foot will be determined accordingly.

It would typically be at the same point where we would consider another dribble to be an illegal dribble, which could also often be called a "carry" (not "palming.")

It's a judgment call sometimes determining when the dribble is ended.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Adam

Two hands is not required to consider the dribble ended. Players end the dribble with one hand all the time. Once we consider the player to be holding the ball, the dribble is ended and the pivot foot will be determined accordingly.

The dribble ends when:
a. The dribbler catches or causes the ball to come to rest in one or both
hands.
b. The dribbler palms/carries the ball by allowing it to come to rest in one or
both hands.
c. The dribbler simultaneously touches the ball with both hands.
d. The ball touches or is touched by an opponent and causes the dribbler to
lose control.
e. The ball becomes dead.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Adam

... which could also often be called a "carry" (not "palming").

Why not? The dribble ends when the dribbler palms/carries the ball by allowing it to come to rest in one or both hands.

There's even a NFHS palming signal:

[potato]

I know my pictures are not as great as a video, but i also described the scenario beside the picture.

I know when you determine the ball has rested, that is why i mentioned the player was not palming or holding the ball in the 1st step. So would it be considered that he only ended the dribble on the 2nd step? If that is the case we can see the player has taken an abnormal 3 steps after the last dribble bounce.

Again if it were a clear cut 90's basketball this kind of question would hardly exist but since we are using pretty much the same rules as the 90's while new play style has been invented i though i'd ask.

Thus i'd like to hear how non-NBA officials see it.

Originally Posted by Adam

I have no idea how to interpret your pictures.

Two hands is not required to consider the dribble ended. Players end the dribble with one hand all the time. Once we consider the player to be holding the ball, the dribble is ended and the pivot foot will be determined accordingly.

It would typically be at the same point where we would consider another dribble to be an illegal dribble, which could also often be called a "carry" (not "palming.")

It's a judgment call sometimes determining when the dribble is ended.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by potato

I know my pictures are not as great as a video, but i also described the scenario beside the picture.

I know when you determine the ball has rested, that is why i mentioned the player was not palming or holding the ball in the 1st step. So would it be considered that he only ended the dribble on the 2nd step?

It could also be sometime between picture 1 and picture 2 and might depend on whether both feet were on the floor during the transition between pics 1 and 2, or whether both feet were in the air, etc.

It does seem to point out whay as officials we don't care about "the number of steps" (1, 2, 100) and only care about "movement of the pivot foot in excess of what is allowed by rule."

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by potato

I know my pictures are not as great as a video, but i also described the scenario beside the picture.

I know when you determine the ball has rested, that is why i mentioned the player was not palming or holding the ball in the 1st step. So would it be considered that he only ended the dribble on the 2nd step? If that is the case we can see the player has taken an abnormal 3 steps after the last dribble bounce.

Again if it were a clear cut 90's basketball this kind of question would hardly exist but since we are using pretty much the same rules as the 90's while new play style has been invented i though i'd ask.

Thus i'd like to hear how non-NBA officials see it.

When we determine the dribble has ended we then determine which foot is the pivot. So in your scenarios what you need to do is determine which foot is the pivot foot based on your judgment as to when the dribble ended. You want us to do that for you based on a picture or description.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by potato

I know my pictures are not as great as a video, but i also described the scenario beside the picture.

I know when you determine the ball has rested, that is why i mentioned the player was not palming or holding the ball in the 1st step. So would it be considered that he only ended the dribble on the 2nd step? If that is the case we can see the player has taken an abnormal 3 steps after the last dribble bounce.

Again if it were a clear cut 90's basketball this kind of question would hardly exist but since we are using pretty much the same rules as the 90's while new play style has been invented i though i'd ask.

Thus i'd like to hear how non-NBA officials see it.

Even if you showed a video there would be people here that might disagree when a pivot foot is exactly established. That is after all why we get paid the big bucks and we bring our personal experiences and judgments to the table. So if you are looking for a single answer that everyone is going to agree with, you are not going to get one. We disagree here all the time even when the rules are clear or have little wiggle room. Heck if you even read this site there are many that want to make everything a travel while others think those situations are being very technical. And your pictures certainly are not going to change that fact.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Even if you showed a video there would be people here that might disagree when a pivot foot is exactly established ...

... and when the ball comes to rest, thus ending the dribble.