You Make The Call (Blocked Shot and Contact)

[rockyroad]

Ryan,

So what was the verdict from your association on this play? Should a foul be called or not?

[dvboa]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Ryan,

So what was the verdict from your association on this play? Should a foul be called or not?

Actually, I was the calling or non-calling official on this play. Looking back on it, I felt that I could have called a non-shooting foul for the contact following the block. The coach of the player that got hit was upset there was a no-call but we had been allowing contact like this throughout the game on both sides of the floor.
I'm positive I would have gotten boos from the home fans for a call here but the video would back me up.
Someone on the Facebook group had asked "would you foul out their best player on a play like this?" My answer would be, probably not. Would l call this type of foul early in a game? Yes I think I would.
To some, a foul is a foul is a foul. I wish officiating were that easy. I try to take into account all the variables (i.e. time, score, player foul count...) when determining what to call and when.
So there is no easy answer to this play. So the best answer I can give to "is this a foul?" would be "it depends..."

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by dvboa

I'm positive I would have gotten boos from the home fans for a call here....

so what?

Someone on the Facebook group had asked "would you foul out their best player on a play like this?" My answer would be, probably not. I try to take into account all the variables ( player foul count...) when determining what to call and when.

Really don't like this. jmo

[dvboa]

[QUOTE=

Really don't like this. jmo[/QUOTE]

Ok.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by dvboa

Actually, I was the calling or non-calling official on this play. Looking back on it, I felt that I could have called a non-shooting foul for the contact following the block. The coach of the player that got hit was upset there was a no-call but we had been allowing contact like this throughout the game on both sides of the floor.
I'm positive I would have gotten boos from the home fans for a call here but the video would back me up.
Someone on the Facebook group had asked "would you foul out their best player on a play like this?" My answer would be, probably not. Would l call this type of foul early in a game? Yes I think I would.
To some, a foul is a foul is a foul. I wish officiating were that easy. I try to take into account all the variables (i.e. time, score, player foul count...) when determining what to call and when.
So there is no easy answer to this play. So the best answer I can give to "is this a foul?" would be "it depends..."

So a foul early in the game may not be a foul late in the game for you?

I find it hard to believe that you'd have this philosophy -- and even if you did that you'd be so open about it.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Rich

So a foul early in the game may not be a foul late in the game for you?

I find it hard to believe that you'd have this philosophy -- and even if you did that you'd be so open about it.

The idea that a fifth foul should somehow have more of a threshold isn't an uncommon philosophy; especially on the best player. Personally, I think if he's the best player, he should know how to not get a foul called when he has four. The only time those here advocate for such a philosophy is if he is the only thing on the losing team keeping your game from falling apart in a major blowout.

Other than that, I don't have to worry about it. And I've had no problem telling a coach on a play like this that he was fine until he went through the shooter.

[dvboa]

Originally Posted by Rich

So a foul early in the game may not be a foul late in the game for you?

I find it hard to believe that you'd have this philosophy -- and even if you did that you'd be so open about it.

My understanding of a forum like this is for the free exchange of ideas about how we officiate. To hide my philosophies would defeat this purpose. I would hope that others in this forum would feel the same way.

Judgement is in the eye of the beholder. Rules application is a different story. An out of bounds in the first quarter is still an out of bounds in the 4th quarter. But to hold our judgement to the same standard would be too ridged. We must be allowed the ability to adjust our judgement to the situation and in a way that best suits the game.

In regards to fouls at certain times of the games - here are some of my thoughts. Hand checks, illegal screens and touch fouls should be called in the first quarter to clean up your game. However, if you have not called these fouls all game, DO NOT bring this type of call into the game in the fourth quarter, unless its intentional or flagrant. Introducing new types of fouls in the fourth quarter is too late.

When it comes to removing a player from the game on his 5th foul, this foul better be good and it better be one that was obvious. It's not fair to the players or the game to disqualify a player with a touch foul, or a foul that only you saw. You may have called that touch foul in the first quarter on this player but you better call a good one on him in the fourth to foul him out. I would be surprised if you have never had a discussion about this with your partners during a pregame or post game. If this is the first time you've heard of such a philosophy then maybe you just don't have enough experience.

Now this philosophy doesn't apply to every situation in every game. Let say you have a player (i.e. football bench player) out there who is disrupting the game and causing all kinds of havoc and hard fouls, then maybe you need to get him out the game. So reverse the philosophy and get him dq'd on a quick one, "to make the game better". This is what judgement is all about, not just from play to play but also about how to keep the game running good, clean and fair.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by dvboa

Someone on the Facebook group had asked "would you foul out their best player on a play like this?" My answer would be, probably not. Would l call this type of foul early in a game? Yes I think I would.

Originally Posted by dvboa

In regards to fouls at certain times of the games - here are some of my thoughts. Hand checks, illegal screens and touch fouls should be called in the first quarter to clean up your game. However, if you have not called these fouls all game, DO NOT bring this type of call into the game in the fourth quarter, unless its intentional or flagrant. Introducing new types of fouls in the fourth quarter is too late.

Introducing a new type of foul in the fourth quarter is indeed too late. So why is it okay to introduce a no-call in the fourth for something that was a foul earlier?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

so what?



Really don't like this. jmo

Originally Posted by just another ref

Introducing a new type of foul in the fourth quarter is indeed too late. So why is it okay to introduce a no-call in the fourth for something that was a foul earlier?

I would not call this in the first quarter so I am good.

Peace

[Toren]

Originally Posted by dvboa

In regards to fouls at certain times of the games - here are some of my thoughts. Hand checks, illegal screens and touch fouls should be called in the first quarter to clean up your game. However, if you have not called these fouls all game, DO NOT bring this type of call into the game in the fourth quarter, unless its intentional or flagrant. Introducing new types of fouls in the fourth quarter is too late.

What about in situations where the first illegal screen is in the 4th quarter? Are you not calling it because it hasn't been called all game?

I don't mind calling a new foul at any point in the game as long as tape supports my call. What I do mind, is we as a crew haven't called a 3 second violation all game and then we get one in the 4th quarter. But that would be introducing a new violation into the game, which is different than what you stated.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by dvboa

My understanding of a forum like this is for the free exchange of ideas about how we officiate. To hide my philosophies would defeat this purpose. I would hope that others in this forum would feel the same way.

Judgement is in the eye of the beholder. Rules application is a different story. An out of bounds in the first quarter is still an out of bounds in the 4th quarter. But to hold our judgement to the same standard would be too ridged. We must be allowed the ability to adjust our judgement to the situation and in a way that best suits the game.

In regards to fouls at certain times of the games - here are some of my thoughts. Hand checks, illegal screens and touch fouls should be called in the first quarter to clean up your game. However, if you have not called these fouls all game, DO NOT bring this type of call into the game in the fourth quarter, unless its intentional or flagrant. Introducing new types of fouls in the fourth quarter is too late.

When it comes to removing a player from the game on his 5th foul, this foul better be good and it better be one that was obvious. It's not fair to the players or the game to disqualify a player with a touch foul, or a foul that only you saw. You may have called that touch foul in the first quarter on this player but you better call a good one on him in the fourth to foul him out. I would be surprised if you have never had a discussion about this with your partners during a pregame or post game. If this is the first time you've heard of such a philosophy then maybe you just don't have enough experience.

Now this philosophy doesn't apply to every situation in every game. Let say you have a player (i.e. football bench player) out there who is disrupting the game and causing all kinds of havoc and hard fouls, then maybe you need to get him out the game. So reverse the philosophy and get him dq'd on a quick one, "to make the game better". This is what judgement is all about, not just from play to play but also about how to keep the game running good, clean and fair.

Is it possible you're thinking too much?

Personally, I want *every* foul to be a quality foul that shows up on tape, whether in the middle of the second quarter or with 2 seconds left. I truly hope that if I call this play (or any play) a foul in the second quarter I'd have the stones to call it when the game's on the line.

There was a play exactly like the OP in tonight's Bulls-Heat game. The Birdman blocked a shot up high, but landed on the shooter. Foul called.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by AremRed

The Birdman blocked a shot up high, but landed on the shooter. Foul called ...

... because conservative minded officials always discriminate against players with tattoos, and mohawks, and the Birdman is the "king" of tattoos, and mohawks.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by AremRed

There was a play exactly like the OP in tonight's Bulls-Heat game. The Birdman blocked a shot up high, but landed on the shooter. Foul called.

Two different plays. And two different environments.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by AremRed

There was a play exactly like the OP in tonight's Bulls-Heat game. The Birdman blocked a shot up high, but landed on the shooter. Foul called.

Robinson was fouled before that block. Different play all together.

Peace