Womens championship game

[Welpe]

Jeff are you essentially advocating the black officials for the black teams / conferences and the white officials for the white teams / conferences?

There are more than a few games where I'll be the only non-black person on the floor. I've never considered that a bad thing and I can't say I've ever heard a negative thing about it from players or coaches (fans are another story).

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not think it is wrong to make sure you have a staff of people that reflect the participants. For one if you have women officiating, they can and likely will relate more to the players in the Women's game than many men. Just like if you have African-Americans officiating the players might feel like they can say things to those individuals that they would not say to other races. Right or wrong that is certainly the case in my experiences and other officials I know that are Black.

Rut and I come from the same place on this one. I've dealt with this since I was an intramural official in college, for crying out loud. My boss would put me on certain games involving all-White and all-Black teams for two reasons: He felt I could handle it and I'm Black. And no, I didn't have to guess, he told me. The reason? Some of the Black teams complained they weren't getting callls from my White colleagues so he wanted that potential gripe dealt with.

Flash forward to my BV/GV life and I can tell you it makes a difference. I'm part of an organization in NYC that works rec leagues in mainly non-White areas all over the five boroughs. We see these kids from the time some of the are 6 or 7 all the way through HS. When they see us on the court in HS it's as though they're seeing a relative and there's lots of stuff they won't do or that we can stop them from doing that officials from other areas can't (I've used the line, "You know better than that" a bunch of times).

Funny story about not adapting from two years ago during a BV game. A White male from Brooklyn was sent up to East Harlem to work a game with me. He truly looked like a fish out of water in the environment, he had all kinds of trouble with the coaches (all of whom were White, BTW...he had to ring up both of one team's ACs but he waited way too long to do it) and ended up stopping a 10-point game with six seconds left because he "saw something in the eyes of the players that told him we were going to have trouble." The players - all Black - were the only ones we didn't have an issue with during the game. I think it was a simple case of him not being comfortable in the environment and I doubt he's been out of his comfort area since. He's not the norm, believe me, but an assignor needs to know who's working for him/her.

In terms of access, well, that's why that NYC organization was created 50 years ago. Non-White officials weren't getting high-level games, regardless of the race(s) of the teams involved. It has changed over the years on the public school side but not so much on the private/Catholic school side. I know guys - no joke - who have been working NCAAM ball for years who are still Frosh/JV in the Catholic leagues.

All this to say that sometimes you have to force the action in terms of race, gender, whatever even in our vocation to find some of the better people. I know it helped me last month but I also know if I'd fallen on my face I would've been SOL. My assignor is a reasonable guy but he's not into charity cases.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bainsey

The best games aren't played every night.

I'm playing devil's advocate here: Let's say that there is only one high school game being played in a little corner of Maine one night. That's the best game being played that night. Shouldn't the players get the benefit of the best official?

All I'm saying is that maybe there are other considerations in assigning games besides getting the best official in the best games? Maybe some assigners want to consider giving young officials some experience in a "big" game. Maybe some assigners want to consider keeping the "unwashed" happy, so that there are always enough officials to cover all the games on a busy night. Maybe some assigners want to consider saving some officials some gas money by avoiding some long road trips. Maybe some assigners want to consider race, gender, etc. as one minor consideration. Maybe others don't.

Once again, I am not an assigner, nor do I play one on television, nor do I ever want to be one, either a real one, or one on television.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

All I'm saying is that maybe there are other considerations in assigning games besides getting the best official in the best games? Maybe some assigners want to consider giving young officials some experience in a "big" game. Maybe some assigners want to consider keeping the "unwashed" happy, so that there are always enough officials to cover all the games on a busy night. Maybe some assigners want to consider saving some officials some gas money by avoiding some long road trips. Maybe some assigners want to consider race, gender, etc. as one minor consideration.

I'm fine with all of those, except the last one. The bottom line is we will never truly have equality until we dismiss the aforementioneds from consideration.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Jeff are you essentially advocating the black officials for the black teams / conferences and the white officials for the white teams / conferences?

There are more than a few games where I'll be the only non-black person on the floor. I've never considered that a bad thing and I can't say I've ever heard a negative thing about it from players or coaches (fans are another story).

No. I am saying there is nothing wrong with having a diverse staff racially just as you would have a diverse staff on a geography basis. And because we have people with certain stereotypes or comfortably, you need people that will not get freaked out if they go certain places. There are a lot of officials in my area that get freaked out when they have to go places they have never been or that have a certain "reputation." You need officials that can handle that and work the game and understand the underlining situation.

I will put it this way, the 2A State Finals in my state was a perfect example of 3 guys that had little understanding of the dynamic of the game. If you had picked 3 officials from the Chicago area they might have been better prepared than what was assigned. But if you had one or two Black officials on that game, you might have not had these racial accusations that took place after the game.

Peace

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

No. I am saying there is nothing wrong with having a diverse staff racially just as you would have a diverse staff on a geography basis. And because we have people with certain stereotypes or comfortably, you need people that will not get freaked out if they go certain places. There are a lot of officials in my area that get freaked out when they have to go places they have never been or that have a certain "reputation." You need officials that can handle that and work the game and understand the underlining situation.

I will put it this way, the 2A State Finals in my state was a perfect example of 3 guys that had little understanding of the dynamic of the game. If you had picked 3 officials from the Chicago area they might have been better prepared than what was assigned. But if you had one or two Black officials on that game, you might have not had these racial accusations that took place after the game.

Peace

Amen, especially to part two. Right or wrong the reality is the guys working in Chicago - just like guys in my area working in NYC - will have seen and heard different things during their games on a normal basis so they know how to handle them. I won't doubt the ablity of the guys on that 2A championship to call a game but they may have been thrown into the deep end in regards to other things. Assignors have to be able to see that sort of thing coming. You may not have your best rules guys on the game but you'll end up with the best managers.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Bottom line is that the supervisors can hire whomever they wish. If they are promoting people based on things other than their officiating ability, they probably will not be the supervisor for very long (as happened to the person icallfouls referenced).

Do you really believe that? I could give you so many examples of this NOT being the case.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Do you really believe that? I could give you so many examples of this NOT being the case.

Sure...and I could give you a bunch of examples of this being the case.

We all know it happens to an extent - someone is promoted quickly because of a demographic. Most times it works out because they can actually ref the game too. When you get a bunch of people promoted quickly because of a demographic, and it turns out they are lousy refs also, that supervisor isn't going to last very long.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bainsey

The bottom line is we will never truly have equality until we dismiss the aforementioneds from consideration.

Agree. But do we truly have equality in 2013? I don't believe that we do, but that's just my opinion. But I certainly agree with you that when we truly do have equality, be it in 2014, or 2114, then all officiating assignments should, rather must, be made based solely on the competence of the officials, not their race, gender, etc.

[tomegun]

Rocky,

You can give examples and I can give examples. However, one of my examples is one too many. Your examples would be of a supervisor doing the right things which should be the point right? Part of the problem with any argument like this is the group that normally has smooth sailing fails to see the problem.

It really comes from a place of ignorance. I am ignorant to ever being able to show up and be part of the preferred group when it comes to camps, clinics, etc. I take that back, I did go to the SWAC camp one year. Others are ignorant to the struggle of being black and an official.

Some examples:
I know of one state where there is about a 99% chance that someone black will be on the highest level state final championship.

I know of one association that must have a white and black in the the assigner/assistant positions. Most of the officials are black in this association.

I know of a deceased supervisor that pushed white male official clones big time. He had a camp system (starting with a state in the middle of the country) and you could tell one of his guys by the way they ran.

I know of a guy that was coddled/protected at a major D1 camp and after several years of protecting him he is a NCAA tournament official. When I say coddled in camp I mean coached while he was on the court, "_________what are you doing? Don't call that..." in a hushed tone. I heard it with my own ears.

One beef I have had with one area I have lived is that established black officials want another black official to be perfect before they will speak up for them. That speaks to how those established officials are viewed - they have to present a near perfect official to the supervisor.

I could go on and on. I have seen the politics in three different parts of the country that all have different racial makeups. It is an interesting thing to see. The one thing I wish would happen is that people that have never been in the group without privilege would really think, listen and show empathy before opening their mouth to say these things don't happen.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by tomegun

You can give examples and I can give examples.

For a few years, our state interscholastic athletics association tried to have only female officials work the girls state championship games. That didn't last too long because back then, maybe fifteen, or twenty, years ago, there weren't enough truly competent female officials.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

For a few years, our state interscholastic athletics association tried to have only female officials work the girls state championship games. That didn't last too long because back then, maybe fifteen, or twenty, years ago, there weren't enough truly competent female officials.

Title IX has nothing to do with who officiates or coaches a game.

Peace

[rockyroad]

tomegun,

I can't say much about your experiences. I can tell you flat out that I was NOT in the "privileged" group of what went on out here. Neither was icallfouls. In our situation, the supervisor was not doing things "properly" and was advancing people into situations they were not ready for. Some of them pulled it off. A bunch didn't. That supervisor was dropped by multiple conferences as a result.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Title IX has nothing to do with who officiates or coaches a game.

Peace

Where did anyone mention Title IX in this thread?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Adam

Where did anyone mention Title IX in this thread?

Title IX On Steroids ???

You did not see BillyMac's title?

Peace