Womens championship game

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The difference is in making sure the disadvantaged group get the opportunities that they should get, even if it means giving chances when they may nore may not be entirely ready versus giving opportunities only to that group....or giving disproportionate opportunities. It should be about making things equal and fair, not shutting out (or nearly shutting shutting out) a group because there predecessors were unfair. Doing things that way will never work. They will not bring people together. It only provides more ammunition to split them apart.

This I agree with. But I don't think that is the case, at least not in my experience in the officiating I've witnessed around me. And I still see plenty of white men officiating at all levels of basketball.

And a related, but separate argument, is having officials who more closely reflect the makeup of the participants. I have no problem with the desire to assign more female officials to women's games.

Just as I have no problem with the lack of black officials in sports such as hockey or lacrosse, for example, where the overwhelming majority of participants are white.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

This I agree with. But I don't think that is the case, at least not in my experience in the officiating I've witnessed around me. And I still see plenty of white men officiating at all levels of basketball.

No disagreement there, at least on the men's side. It seems to me that, at least at the NCAA and NBA levels, white men and black men are treated fairly. Good officials move up regardless. There might be individual or localized problems but there doesn't seem to be any overall problems with discrimination. The women might very well have a complaint there, but that is a different discussion.

However, if you were to see WNBA or NCAAW championship games, year after year, with 3 women when there are plenty of qualified and capable men who also want that assignment (and that is not unlikely), that really would reek of discrimination. It would be no different that if you saw the NBA finals and NCAAM finals always worked by white men year after year with no other race represented. They might be qualified, but it would scream discrimination and would be a travesty.

Originally Posted by VaTerp

And a related, but separate argument, is having officials who more closely reflect the makeup of the participants. I have no problem with the desire to assign more female officials to women's games.

Just as I have no problem with the lack of black officials in sports such as hockey or lacrosse, for example, where the overwhelming majority of participants are white.

I think the real representation should be more a reflection of the number of people desiring to be officials in each area....as is the case with hockey/lacrosse. You just don't see than many non-whites that are interested there. So, you wouldn't expect many non-white officials either.

Also, desiring a makeup of officials that reflect that of the participants somewhat assumes that the makeup of officials as a whole reflects that of the participants. It doesn't, for whatever reason. Those that choose to get into officiating do so for different reasons and the those numbers more closely reflect the general population than the mix of players.

When those two groups (players and officials) are similarly composed, to expect them to resemble each other as the levels go up would not be unreasonable. However, when they are not similarly composed, expecting them to match doesn't make sense. That would mean someone is just getting left behind because of race. And I think we can all agree that is not right.

It might be a good idea to have a diverse crew on a diverse game but it wouldn't make sense to have an all black crew with all black teams just for the sake of having everyone of the same race any more than it would to have an all white crew on all white games because they match.

[Adam]

I agree with Camron here, and would add that recruiting new officials might be an area where we could expand. I don't even know what recruiting efforts are done, frankly. I was asked by a friend if I wanted to work some middle school games way back when I was about 19. That's when I got the bug, even if it took me about 10 years to really get into it after that.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Adam

Recruiting new officials might be an area where we could expand.

Bingo. Pick a prize from the top shelf.

(Note: I'm not about to be sarcastic, I just need a generic example.)

If somebody, or some group, decides that we don't have enough qualified Martian officials, then I have no problem with recruiting the hell out of the Martian population. Contact the local Martian community leaders. Have existing officials reach out to their Martian friends, and co-workers. Contact the athletic director, and the basketball coaches, at the local historically Martian university. Put up posters at the observatory, planetarium, health club, nail salon, Starbucks, barber shop, tanning parlor, casino, library, church, etc., wherever Martians like to hang out. Contact the leader of the local Martian American Club, and the NAAGP. Put an ad in the local Martian language newspaper.

Once they've been recruited, then let them train, and move up the ladder like any other official. Of course, it's important to make sure that the Martian movement up the ladder is not hindered in any way by any discrimination. No Martian should be denied movement up the ladder simply because they're Martian, and it's just as important that no Martian receive preferential treatment just because they're Martian. Recruit enough Martian officials, and eventually, it may take a few years, on a perfect Earth, you'll have Martian officials working state championship games.

Also, it's important that Martians of all three sexes be recruited, avoiding any discrimination based on gender.

It's been 115 years since Martians attacked the Earth. It's about time that we stop discriminating against them. Many of us drive Japanese cars, and Pearl Harbor was only about seventy years ago.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Exactly what does the racial makeup or gender of a team have to do with who are the best officials? I have yet to see a single real point that supports how that matters. Get the best officials, whoever they are. If the teams have a problem with that, who is really the problem? Yes, there are certain games where having diverse representation can help, but that is really only become necessary when the teams have issues.

If it does matter and you want everything to match, you should also be suggesting that the state restrict the teams that are allowed to participate in the tourney and advance based on the population's demographic breakdown. To do otherwise is counter to representing true fairness for everyone. I don't for one moment believe that should be the case, but that is essentially what you're arguing for. If you're going to pick a reference point for drawing some sort of quota, it should be relative to the overall population.

From recent census data, Illinois is 63% While, 16% Hispanic, 15% Black, 5% Asian, plus a few smaller groups. If a fair and equal world where you accept that all people are created equal and each person gets a fair chance based on their own abilities, of the 12 finals slots you mentioned, you'd expect an average of about 8 Whites, 2 Blacks, 2 Hispanics, and an Asian every other year or so.

Hmmm. Since you're for equality, can I assume out there promoting the idea of ensuring there are 2 Hispanics working the finals every year and 1 less Black than there was???

It has a lot to do with it if you are not used to working a certain kind of ball. The teams that ended up winning the two biggest classes came out of the City of Chicago. You know who works that ball most of the time? You guessed it, African-American officials mostly. Basketball in the city at the top level is often above the rim, very quick and can have an edge to the players you do not see anywhere else.

I also did not say that race should be the only factor. There are white officials from the city that are used to that style of ball as opposed to those that work in rural areas and suburban areas where the teams are never above the rim and not nearly as quick.

And most of all the players act, behave differently in different areas and coaches act and behave differently as well. It is often a "shock" to officials that have never been in the city (even the Catholic schools) in the way they will overreact to situations without having experience to squelch issues.

This is why I pointed to the 2A Finals in this state. Those three officials came from a part of the state where I doubt seriously that they on a regular basis had two teams play each other that were different racially by fans and players. I have had that kind of situation or experience in this season several times. It is no big deal for me and one of the reasons is my race because I am put into those situations by assignors with a racially mixed crew. And that does not mean African-American treat me better. It just means I often will be the guy they come to about stuff, but when I do not do what they want they act up. But that would be a shock to many officials who have never been in those situations.

Race can play as big of a factor as knowing where someone lives, seeing how big someone is and how athletic they are to keep up or what your years of experience is. Some people have fewer years of experience and have dealt with things than someone with more years. And it appears that many supervisors in my experience feel that way. I know coaches have complained that they did not have more diversity in a staff. And no, was not always Black coaches that complained. It was other coaches that felt it mattered when they coached an all-Black team.

Peace

[BillyMac]

.. of the way we were.



We're movin' on up. Of course, our skin color wasn't an issue, and half of us already had a penis. All we had to do was lose our brogue, and stop going to mass every Sunday. That's what my great grandfather did, and then he got to work for the railroad, all the livelong day.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It has a lot to do with it if you are not used to working a certain kind of ball. The teams that ended up winning the two biggest classes came out of the City of Chicago. You know who works that ball most of the time? You guessed it, African-American officials mostly. Basketball in the city at the top level is often above the rim, very quick and can have an edge to the players you do not see anywhere else.

I also did not say that race should be the only factor. There are white officials from the city that are used to that style of ball as opposed to those that work in rural areas and suburban areas where the teams are never above the rim and not nearly as quick.

And most of all the players act, behave differently in different areas and coaches act and behave differently as well. It is often a "shock" to officials that have never been in the city (even the Catholic schools) in the way they will overreact to situations without having experience to squelch issues.

This is why I pointed to the 2A Finals in this state. Those three officials came from a part of the state where I doubt seriously that they on a regular basis had two teams play each other that were different racially by fans and players. I have had that kind of situation or experience in this season several times. It is no big deal for me and one of the reasons is my race because I am put into those situations by assignors with a racially mixed crew. And that does not mean African-American treat me better. It just means I often will be the guy they come to about stuff, but when I do not do what they want they act up. But that would be a shock to many officials who have never been in those situations.

Race can play as big of a factor as knowing where someone lives, seeing how big someone is and how athletic they are to keep up or what your years of experience is. Some people have fewer years of experience and have dealt with things than someone with more years. And it appears that many supervisors in my experience feel that way. I know coaches have complained that they did not have more diversity in a staff. And no, was not always Black coaches that complained. It was other coaches that felt it mattered when they coached an all-Black team.

Peace

And that is an entirely different question than what race those officials were. That was simply a matter of the officials not being qualified for that game.

We see the game thing here...officials from outside of Portland can be suprised by the level of ball they encounter when they get deep into the tourney...and they are the same race as the other officials and players.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

And that is an entirely different question than what race those officials were. That was simply a matter of the officials not being qualified for that game.

We see the game thing here...officials from outside of Portland can be suprised by the level of ball they encounter when they get deep into the tourney...and they are the same race as the other officials and players.

I believe qualifications can include race when situations of the participants and their reaction to things are a factor. Just like someone in business is going to hire or send people in their company to deal with certain groups because they know they can handle those situation. I would not expect in a sport like soccer to send all English speaking people into certain places if all the players speak Spanish. Let us not act like only a certain group is "qualified" in the first place. And what does "qualified" even mean? And for some reason we never see outcries for qualification of officials when they are all white males. That is a fact you still have yet to address, but we seem to wonder why women and African-Americans are in games when the players look more like them are somehow not "qualified." I find that fact very interesting.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Each State Finals weekend there are 12 officials picked. There was not on African-American or woman picked for the 1A-2A Finals. And both classes had 2 schools that were entirely African-American in nature. Also, look what happened in the 2A title game and all the controversy. No one said a word about fairness when that happened.

If 10% of the officials are of a certain demographic, I'd expect that over a longer period of time that demographic would receive pretty near that percentage of total slots.

Sound like a fair statement?

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It has a lot to do with it if you are not used to working a certain kind of ball. The teams that ended up winning the two biggest classes came out of the City of Chicago. You know who works that ball most of the time? You guessed it, African-American officials mostly. Basketball in the city at the top level is often above the rim, very quick and can have an edge to the players you do not see anywhere else.

Peace

In all fairness Jeff, I would say a number of these officials that only work CPS games fall through the cracks and fail to receive post season assignments because the coaches in the CPS do a poor job of sending in ratings, which limits the ability of those officials to move through playoffs. Also a number city officials dont do the stuff necessary to get promoted (many are still x or r) or go to camps, both of which also have negative impact on their power ratings and playoff assignments.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by johnny d

In all fairness Jeff, I would say a number of these officials that only work CPS games fall through the cracks and fail to receive post season assignments because the coaches in the CPS do a poor job of sending in ratings, which limits the ability of those officials to move through playoffs. Also a number city officials dont do the stuff necessary to get promoted (many are still x or r) or go to camps, both of which also have negative impact on their power ratings and playoff assignments.

There are a lot of officials that work more than CPS and see teams all over the place. I was not referring to only officials that see CPS. The is CPL, there are south suburbs and there are places in the suburbs that have some of the top teams in the area. And Power Rating could not have meant that much this past season. They found people to use I know that did not have power rating numbers. And we know they use people regionally. So someone from a suburban region is not necessarily competing with someone in the city limits.

[Texref]

Watching thr ufc season finale. The female fight referee is, you guessed it, a female. Found that interesting after reading this thread. First female ufc ref I have seen.

[APG]

Originally Posted by Texref

Watching thr ufc season finale. The female fight referee is, you guessed it, a female. Found that interesting after reading this thread. First female ufc ref I have seen.

The UFC is not involved with assigning referees. And that referee has also worked other PPV events, with males fighting, so it's nothing new for her.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

There are a lot of officials that work more than CPS and see teams all over the place. I was not referring to only officials that see CPS. The is CPL, there are south suburbs and there are places in the suburbs that have some of the top teams in the area. And Power Rating could not have meant that much this past season. They found people to use I know that did not have power rating numbers. And we know they use people regionally. So someone from a suburban region is not necessarily competing with someone in the city limits.

I agree with this, I was just saying there are alot of officials in the Chicago area that do not take the necessary steps to make themselves available for the playoffs. Even using guys without high power ratings, they are never going to advance guys that are only r past first round of playoffs, and guys that are x will most likely never get a playoff at all in chicagoland area.

[JetMetFan]

For those of us not in the Chicago area, what are R and X?