Louisville-Baylor post play clip

[JetMetFan]

I put together a couple of plays from that game. Most had fouls. One didn't. All were in the first half. I think the first and last plays have the two most egregious non-calls - at least at the moment the contact took place - but as I said, all of the plays except one eventually had a whistle.

Jeez.

Play 1: I had a situation just like this a couple months ago, except with an attempted kick-stomp. I gave a technical. These officials should have penalized this slap-swing.

Play 3: I see a foul 8 seconds before the whistle(s) was blown. Plus, triple whistle!

[blindzebra]

You can survive a game when one official is struggling.

When all 3 are this game is the result.

[Judtech]

Dang that last play you had 13 throw an elbow and then for take a shot at her face as she came across the paint. Can't believe they didn't have a whistle on the first play.

[Raymond]

Play #2 had both the Lead and Trail with a 5 second count so neither one was watching off-ball on that side of the court.

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Play #2 had both the Lead and Trail with a 5 second count so neither one was watching off-ball on that side of the court.

Every time I look at the clips it feels like I am watching a 3 person camp for newer officials, where they are so worried about mechanics that they forget to officiate the game.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

Feels like I am watching a 3 person camp for newer officials, where they are so worried about mechanics that they forget to officiate the game.

I'm guessing that you've seen me work a three person game. I'll probably work my next one when Halley's comet returns.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Play #2 had both the Lead and Trail with a 5 second count so neither one was watching off-ball on that side of the court.

You mean #3.

I just noticed that. Based on experience I'll say the L should have stayed with the post play/Griner since that's what she was watching before the ball entered her PCA. The drive came from the T so there's no reason for him to shift his view somewhere else.

[Pantherdreams]

Watched this live and again here. I can understand why Baylor was upset particularly if this was not the norm. Not to defend the officials in this case, but for a high level girls/guys game in (which I've only watched not done) in FIBA - 'round these parts - most of that contact is pretty par for the course.

Obviously the slaps or intentional elbows are issue, but arms in and on/ positioning using hands/arms first and then body or foot movement is pretty often let go.

I think the toughest part of the game is that Griner isn't allowed to battle. If she puts are arm out or on because of her size and strength she's by their face and head and making space so she ends up on the recieving end all night.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

Watched this live and again here. I can understand why Baylor was upset particularly if this was not the norm. Not to defend the officials in this case, but for a high level girls/guys game in (which I've only watched not done) in FIBA - 'round these parts - most of that contact is pretty par for the course.

Obviously the slaps or intentional elbows are issue, but arms in and on/ positioning using hands/arms first and then body or foot movement is pretty often let go.

I think the toughest part of the game is that Griner isn't allowed to battle. If she puts are arm out or on because of her size and strength she's by their face and head and making space so she ends up on the recieving end all night.

My issue, after watching it live on TV and then a number of times while cutting the video, comes with calling the game "physical." To me "physical" - or better yet, "rough" - means all that stuff was going on and there weren't any whistles. Some were late as we see in the clip and one didn't come at all but there wasn't a lack of fouls on the players guarding Griner since three UL players fouled out.

Frankly, I thought they should've had her go to the high post so she could get the ball more often. If she gets it and faces the hoop by rule all bets are off in terms of hand contact because she becomes a dribbler instead of a post player. The couple of times it happened in the game Griner blew right past her defender.

I agree with your thoughts on the toughest part of the game. The TC on Griner doesn't happen if she's being guarded by, say, Elena Della Donne who is 6'5" so that arm hits Della Donne in the torso instead of hitting the Louisville player in the head. That being said, it's not as though Griner doesn't know she's literally head and shoulders above most defenders.

[Adam]

"by rule"? What rule?

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Adam

"by rule"? What rule?

You can use arm bars on players in the post as long as their back is to the basket and the post area covers the entire key. Once a player faces he/she becomes a ballhandler/dribbler so the only thing a defender can do with his/her hands - by rule - is measure up once. After that it's move your feet to stay with the offense.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

You can use arm bars on players in the post as long as their back is to the basket and the post area covers the entire key. Once a player faces he/she becomes a ballhandler/dribbler so the only thing a defender can do with his/her hands - by rule - is measure up once. After that it's move your feet to stay with the offense.

Can you show me where this is located in the rules book or case book?

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by johnny d

Can you show me where this is located in the rules book or case book?

Sorry. For NCAAW it's in Appendix III of the rule book. I should have said "guidelines."

Post Play
a. Definition. A post player is defined in Rule 4-54 as any offensive or defensive player in the lane area with or without the ball with her back to the basket. The lane area includes the three-second lane (See Rule 4-69) and approximately three feet just outside the lane. An offensive post player becomes a ball handler when, while in the lane area, she turns and faces the basket with the ball or moves completely outside the lane area with the ball.

b. Legal activity. It is legal for a defensive player to place one or two body parts (hands or arm-bars) on the offensive post player provided no holding, displacing or illegal contact occurs. Legal contact occurs when offensive and defensive players are touching and both are maintaining a legally established position. However, when any legal contact occurs between post players to maintain a position, an official’s awareness should be heightened and he/she should be prepared to make a foul call when the contact becomes illegal.

c. Illegal contact. A foul shall be called when:
1. A legally established arm-bar is extended and displaces an opponent.
2. Displacement occurs from a locked and/or extended elbow.
3. A leg or knee is used in the rear of an opponent to hold or displace.
4. An offensive post player “backs-down” and displaces the defender once
that defender has established a legal guarding position.
5. The offensive post player holds, hooks or displaces the leg or body of the defender.
6. An opponent is displaced from a legally established or obtained position.

Ball Handler or Dribbler
a. Definition. A ball handler or dribbler is any player with player control (holding or dribbling) outside the lane area, either facing or with her back to the basket. An arm-bar is contact with the forearm that is away from the body.
b. Legal activity. The following are examples of legal activity:
1. A one hand “measure up” by the defense. This means, one hand (front or back of the hand) contacting the ball-handler/dribbler and immediately removing that hand. Also known as a “hot stove” touch. This is the ONLY hand contact that is legal by the defense and is considered incidental.
2. When a dribbler makes a move past a defender, and the defender’s arm, which is against her own body, makes incidental contact with the dribbler. Bodies may momentarily touch as long as there is no displacement.

[johnny d]

Interesting. At every NCAA-M camp or clinic I have gone to (DIII-DI) we have always been told that armbar is legal before the post player gets the ball, but has to be removed as soon as they get the ball regardless as to whether or not they turn and face the basket.