Louisville/Baylor (Women)
 

First of all, I know Rut won't care. :D

Foul on a made basket with 9:50 left in the second. If we can get video, would anyone consider taunting on the shooter when she gets up into Griner's face (well, not quite that high)?

Didn't see the game but would love to see the vid.

Double Technical. 6:05 left in the game.

Saw a highlight with Griner and a player basically throwing punches at each other and nothing was mentioned about this situation on ESPN. I was wondering if anything was done.

And no, I do not care, it is women's basketball. ;)

Peace

2:01. Charge/Block. Technical foul follows.

Wow, Mulkey just completely lost it. 16.7 seconds left.

16.7. Block/Charge. Mullkey looses it.

I am shocked she did not get T'd.

Peace

She should've, there's no doubt.

Baylor's still going to escape. Louisville's trying to give Baylor the game.

And Tennessee is the happiest team of all. Well, except for Louisville, of course.

There is a lot to watch or clip in this game. I was not impressed with several plays in the last 3 minutes of the game I saw.

Peace

The charge call where Mulkey lost it is the exception that proves the rule about players going to the ground. That should've been a no call even with both players on the ground.

Then I thought they weren't going to call a foul at the end when Griner almost knocked the Louisville player in the front row. And then they called it really late, almost after the fact.

And I thought the announcers in the men's games were bad.

Loved the couldn't tell what he said to get the T.

Embarrassing.......
 

Worst officiated game in either tournament.....Louisville made that into a street fight and officials didn't step up.....

Wow
 

I know this is womens college basketball (I never watch), but wow the refs in this contest were HORRIBLE!!! Yes I am a certified ref and I try to give refs the benefit of the doubt. The cheap shots in the first half (Not called) were horrible, and then the block/charge call with 16.9 left in the game really. If I was Baylor this would be a tough game to take and I hope the officials lose there rank to work tournament games for a few years very sad...

She didn't even displace her. Basically the way the Louisville player flopped, the contact was more with the legs of the Baylor player. I just hated that call, HATED IT!!! And to come from the trail, and very late after it appeared the play was over was worse. Trust your damn partners.

Peace

Exactly how I felt. Hated the call and where it came from.

And I'm glad they showed restraint and did not T the Baylor coach there. She lost it for a second but she stopped herself from tossing her jacket and her assistants did a good job of getting her back under control.

Looked like he didn't want to call a foul there at the end.

But they just T'd up the UL coach for something and the BU coach went off. I will admit I kind of enjoyed that part, but was shocked they let it go. This is why that first T better have been a good one or something was said that was so over the top it had to be called. But the actions by the BU coach could not have been much worse. Very inconsistent if you ask me.

Peace

Agreed, depending on what he said, of course. But that sure looked bad.

I also didn't like the charge call that led her to go nuts, but it wasn't turrible.

Rut -

You are right on......if you stick UL head coach, you better stick the Baylor coach.....she was no different that Geno yesterday...

Ok. I didnt see the T on the UL coach.

I saw Baylor was down late and only saw the last 2 minutes or so.

It was right before you turned it on, then. Great PC call, but the coach was visibly much more subdued than the Baylor coach was later when she didn't get tagged.

There may be good reasons, since we don't know what he said, but it sure looks bad.

He wanted to go with an out of bounds call. Had to call that foul.

And for the record I have no problem giving a T to the UL coach if he said something, just be prepared to do the same less than a minute later.

Peace

On twitter, someone I follow said the only thing Kim Mulkey needed after that call was a brass pole.

And agree the one on Griner at the end it appeared they didn't want to call it.

I'm shocked you know what they are talking about.

This was a POOR call. Defender clearly not in LGP prior to shooter leaving the floor.

Mulkey continued on the officiating in her press conference.

He absolutely DID NOT want to make that call. Not only did he "double clutch" on the fist...he wanted until AFTER the ball was bouncing up after landing out of bounds.

It was the latest I've ever seen a call made on an "obvious" and "must call" foul. It was correct. And. It. Was. Exceptionally. Late.

Flipped over when I read this thread and ESPN was doing a highlight of the game which made be see if Baylor would use. Still on a high over the previous games so I needed a basketball fix. Not watching baseball, not happening. ;)

Peace

The timing is irrelevant, but the fact that he didn't *want* to call a foul there speaks volumes.

The timing speaks to the lengths the L was willing to go to NOT call a foul there. After an "officiating eternity", he realized he HAD to call that foul and blew his whistle....

This is the same official who, as the C, passed on a charge call on Baylor's PG with under a minute left (it occurred in the middle of the lane a step below the FT line). The T had to come and get it....He didn't want to call this one either.

He called the foul so it really doesnt matter to me if he "wanted to" or not. He did.

As for the PC that the T came and got, I think that was a bad whistle there.

It does matter if you want people to believe in you and your calls. He looked very unsure of himself and that is the time of the game when you really have to look confident. It is a Regional Semifinal for God's sake. I would expect that action from a JV official, not someone working D1.

Peace

Good point. I was just referring to the length of time.

But he absolutely should come strong and confident whenever he does put air in it.

And this is what I have always heard as, "Anticipate the play, not the call." He had to know that there was a possibility for a foul with two players closing hard on a fast break. He has got to know something is going to happen and likely a foul. Just be ready to call something and he did not appear to be ready and was surprised (by his actions) that something took place.

Peace

Yup. He could've put air in the whistle at the same time and still looked confident -- honestly, I thought he was going to no call it and call the OOB and I think he thought about doing just that for a moment. He ended up looking indecisive.

Just something to look at and try to learn from...

I agree. I wasn't thrilled with that call. Looked like a flop to me.

Exactly. It wasn't just the delay that looked bad, it was the double clutch combined with the delay.

I thought it was a good call.

I agree got to be ready to referee all the way to end of a game.

IMO, the charge call at the end against Baylor was correct. I do not see a block or flop on this play. T gave C every chance to get it and saved the crew with the call.

As for the comments Baylor's coach made in her press conference....she will be getting a call from the Big 12 or the NCAA or both to pay a fine.

Saved the crew? Major league flop and bought the call, IMO.

I'm amazed that people can see something so differently.

Wow, just saw coach's comments in the postgame.

"Sad for the game." And that was after not getting a well-deserved T.

Exactly Adam...that is why I think the fine should be and will be stiff.

Having worked at the collegiate level before Rich...I have seen the something different

Can you explain to me why L should have called this earlier? It was a drive initiated in C's area and on C's side of the lane. I thought L kept waiting for C to call something, but finally took it himself.

I have worked college ball too and that was about as big of a flop as I have ever seen. The defender threw themselves out of the way and was not at all displaced. If anything the defender falling down made the Baylor player trip over them, but there was no torso contact. And two officials that had a better angle passed on the play.

Peace

The play was in transition. Unless Women's Mechanics have a different standard, that play is the Lead's as much as anyone else in the game. And the Lead had the best look as he can see both players coming at the shooter.

Peace

However Rich, both players went to the floor and thus a call needed to be made and I agree with the call. It was a charge.

In the women's game...this is normally the C's call...but was probably straight lined because of it being in transition.

<s>Are you thinking of a different play, or am I misremembering it? I don't recall the Baylor player going to the floor. She got twisted in the defender's legs while the defender was lying on the floor, but that was about it.</s>
Never mind. Just saw the replay, they were both on the floor. Still think it was a flop, and a trip on the defender while lying on the floor.

Based on what action by A1 do you have PC on that play.

How about just knowing how/why both players went to the floor? The defender flopped and the contact didn't affect the offensive player's movement (she passed the ball to an open teammate without incident).

On some plays, I agree with your point 4-40, but not on a block/charge play.

Just saw the game package on ESPN - thought it was a flop. Rare to hear comments like Mulkey's during the press conference. She pretty much put the loss on the officials.

Which was complete rubbish, even though I think the charge call was wrong. They had the ball right after that, got the lead, and then had to commit a transition foul because their defense was a sieve.

I don't think this is a true block/charge. As stated earlier in this thread, the only contact is initiated by defender's lower body when she flops. I thought this when I originally saw the play on espn. The offensive player is turning to pass before the contact, so I don't believe this play warrants a whistle either way, especially at this level.

I don't think she puts the loss on the officials. She initially tried to say Griner didn't commit a foul on the last shot but then a reporter tells her it was a foul. I think mostly her griping was aimed at the terrible PC call, the poor job the officials did in putting a whistle on physical plays early in the game, and the obvious taunting T that should have been called on Louisville after an "And-1". From the clips I saw I would say this game will not make any of these officials retirement videos.

This is why I said it's the exception to the rule. Normally if two players go to the floor, I'd have a call. Except the player with the ball didn't go through the defender -- she flopped big time. Not going to put the foul on the flopper, so I'd no call that.

If someone says that's an IC after that, so be it. I'm not going to reward someone who flops like that.

This is killing me. I missed the game. Where are our video gurus? :)

Then I will agree to disagree with some...I still say charge and applaud the T for coming and getting the call no matter how late the whistle.

I think it was the wrong call on the PC, but it hardly changed the game. I didn't think it was terrible, either. It was just a missed call.

I agree the taunting T should have been dished, and it would have prevented the double T later. I didn't see the first part of the game, though, so I can't comment on the early physical play.

But she should have been handed a T for her antics after that PC foul.

Busy clipping from the other Louisville win.

That's terrible.

Losing the subsequent bucket off the PC in a game lost by one point hardly changes the game?

My opinion
 

I only watched a couple moments of this game. What I saw of the officiating did not impress me one bit. I fully admit, I am not the best ref in the world, and mostly work rec league and middle school games.

The first really bad missed call I saw was the charge on Louisville that lead to the T for the coach. The defender clearly slide under the shooter after she left the floor. That is a blocking foul, not a charge. Had that call been called correctly the T is never called, which could have had a major impact on the game.

My first reaction to the charge call on Baylor very late was it was a correct call. After seeing the replay, I'm not so sure, but I will give the benefit of the doubt to the official on the call of a charge. What I had a problem with was the lateness of the call.

It was the same lateness that happened on the last foul called against Baylor on Louisville last ditch effort. The official seemed scared to make a call and called the foul WAY late.

Also can someone please explain why Louisville's coach was given a T, but Baylor's coach, and the Baylor bench was not given a T after the late call they disagreed with?

Overall just what I saw was very poor officiating, and I only saw a small portion of the game.

Not as much as the technical foul would have had they rightly called it.

But in this case, no. Baylor got the ball back right after that, they got fouled and made both shots to take the lead with around 10 seconds left. Their sieve defense is what lost the game by putting Louisville at the line.

Not commenting on the "officiating" in general. But I thought the PC on Louisville was a good call.
The PC on Baylor was not the right call.

You're correct on the technical fouls. I don't think this crew did a great job with sportsmanship (they missed a taunting T that would have avoided a later double T). I'd like to know what the Louisville coach said that got the call, and would bet they'll be downgraded more for not sticking the Baylor coach than for calling that flop/charge. She's right, they'll probably not move on; but she's got the reasoning wrong.

Which would have put them up 3, without the PC.

Right or wrong, the call significantly changed the game.

How can you think the PC foul on Louisville was the right call. It was pretty clear the shooter had gone airborne well prior to the defender establishing defensive position on the play. Unless there is some new form of physics in play I haven't heard of the offensive player had no way to avoid contact once she took off to a spot that was open when she left the ground. You have to allow an airborne player the opportunity to land if you haven't established defensive position prior to her leaving the floor.

Brittney Griner's Collegiate Career Is Over After Louisville Shocks Baylor And Ends The Bears' 32-Game Winning Streak

Never mind on the last 20 seconds, but I'm still curious about the earlier Louisville PC call everyone's discussing, if anyone gets a chance.

I'm telling you what I saw when I watched it live. I'd like to see a replay, and reserve the option to change my mind.

We will have to reserve judgement till you see the replay.

I know when I saw the play live I knew then it was a block. Seeing the replay of the play just confirmed what I saw when it happened.

The officials just let the game get out of control and as mentioned earlier looked like a crew that should be doing freshmen/ jv level.

The end of the game Baylor messed up giving a layup with 9 seconds, but the officials (term used loosely) should not see another game of this level. Of course two of them were females so they can write there own ticket to do a final four in the womens side...



Lousville upsets #1 Baylor women, last 16 seconds - YouTube

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/uTtjcU4994E" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Three things
 

1. I can't figure out what the officials might have been talking about with 16 seconds left. Louisville has a throw in, Baylor knocks the ball out of bounds on the throw in attempt, and then the C comes down to talk to the L. They both then go talk to the T. The lead walks back and then the C goes back to talk to the T. The C then makes one more comment to the L. What do you think may have been the issue they were discussing?

2. With 9.1 seconds left, after the foul on the layup attempt, the referee is ready to administer the free throw and 4 Louisville players are lined up in their lane spaces and where is Baylor? The team without a timeout is huddling up with Coach Mulkey. I thought huddles in the lane aren't allowed - huddles with the coach? Permitting that huddle seemed to give a pretty big advantage to Baylor.

3. With the game tied (after the Louisville player hit the first FT), with just over two seconds left, why wouldn't Coach Walz have two rebounders on the lane. I get that they don't want to commit a foul and put Baylor on the line, but with the game tied, don't you *have* to have some players around just in case the ball comes off the rim strange/long and give your team a chance to score in regulation (because with most of the starting team fouled out, they were NOT likely to win in OT).

What rule says offensive players have to occupy their lane spaces? And what prevents them from standing by their coach along the sideline?

Put them up by 3? They were down by 1. A bad call (IMO) cost them a possession. They immediately regain possession on the ensuing DESIGNATED SPOT throw-in. They were foul and made 2 free throws.

You think the same turnover would have occurred had Baylor scored on the orginial possession? That's a large leap considering the defense they played after the made free throws.

The only thing I think they could have called was that Baylor appeared to have some players huddles below the the FT line extended. In that case they need to break the huddle or move outside the FT line extended.

Otherwise I agree. Nothing requires offensive team members to be in a lane space, so the officials should not have required to break the huddle up if they were outside the FT extended.

I have had this similar situation occur in middle school games. Late in a game, the offense doesn't want the lane spaces and the coach wants to talk to the players. He calls everyone but the shooter over to talk, and puts a sub at the table for the shooter. She makes two FT's and the horn blows for the sub, which allows the D to get set.

Would have liked to see them scramble had she missed the second FT though.

Why? Why do you care about a coach's strategy and tactics as long as they are legal?

Because the coach in question in that game was an arrogant AH that was talking to his team from a seated position on the bench because he had been T'ed up already for arguing calls.

Seriously I just think it would have been fun to see his players have to get back on D from the bench area because they were talking. They are a quick team so they likely could have done it, but it would be interesting.

I'm 99% sure they were discussing whether there was a kick ball on the first inbound attempt, which I believe there was. A kick would mean a reset of the game clock.

I can tell you for share all three of these officials will continue to work this level and one them would not shock me seeing them at the Final Four. All three of these officials are guaranteed better then any of us. They work at the highest levels in the toughest of environments. To say some of the comments I have read on here "officials (and I use the term loosely)...or...a crew that should have been doing freshman/jv" is just plain wrong and unprofessional. One of the officials on this game is one of the top 5-10 woman's officials in the country.

Like John Adams said when CBS interviewed him after the Iowa State/Ohio State game..."Officials are going to make mistakes. We have to live with it and move on. They are not going to be perfect. It is a part of the game."

And btw, for all of you who feel this crew from the Louisville/Baylor game should never work another game at that level again....one of the officials who worked the Iowa State/Ohio State mens game with the well talked about charge call against Iowa State worked the Duke/Louisville mens game yesterday.

These men and women working these game are far better trained then we are and may ever be. Thefore, I think we owe them the due respect they have earned whether we agree with calls made or not made in their games.

Just my MHO (my honest opinion)

This would be perfect for gojeremy's thread about taking the emotion out of what we do. ;)

That play was a prime example of why I HATE this phrase and really think it should be removed from the thinking of officials doing HS varsity level and above.

What this phrase does is essentially say, if bodies are on the floor and you don't know what to call, just call something and guess. And that's what IMO the T did here. The other two officials, who were in much better position to referee the defense, passed for a reason.

It was a BIG time flop. At the point of contact the offensive player's movement is going up. The defender throws her upper body back to draw the call and was rewarded for her acting job by the official in the worst position to see it. BIG time flop.

I guess the phrase is fine for lower levels of play where you need to remind less experienced officials to put air in the whistle on some plays. But there is no reason that experienced officials should feel the need to HAVE to have a whistle simply b/c bodies are on the floor. As long as they know how they got there and refereed the defense they should be fine.

After the replay
 

I stand by my opinion that the PC foul call was correct. I also think Baylor's coach was very lucky not to get a T in that situation.

I have no idea what the officials were discussing when the they were talking about prior to the throw in. As one of the other posters said, it very well could be a kicked ball issue. That was my first thought when I watched it live.

As for the administering official whistling at the Baylor bench prior to the free throws. Several of the huddled players were below the FT line extended during the huddle, thus they were not in legal position when the whistle was blown. The other thing I just noticed was a possible mis-communication by the crew. It appears they are still in the process of administering the replacement of a disqualified player when Hammond fouled out, but the official is trying to get Baylor to the FT lane. I'm not sure if the L realized the player had fouled out.

The last call is the one that actually worries me as much as anything. The official definitely looks scared to make a call in that situation. It was a very late call and a massive double clutch before the call was made. At least he got the call correct.

Just what I saw of that portion of the game makes me seriously question the officiating of this game. Hearing comments about earlier in the game makes me think the officials never really had control of the game from the outset.

L passed on this play because the play did not start in her primary so she is not looking at that play from start but seeing the end of it. So it is C's primary and T's secondary. I still stand behind the T's decision to blow the whistle on this play. T gave C every chance to make a call and C did not. I still feel T did the right thing by saving the crew and making the call and I still feel and believe T got the call correct.

Forgive me if I am wrong, but I don't believe NCAA seat belt rules apply to HC's T'd up like they do in NFHS. Can someone help?

I understand your opinion, and agree to a large extent. One of my complaints this post-season has been too many games I've watched have had players hitting the floor as a result of contact with another player and nothing is being called. A lot of these plays have been pretty clear blocks or PC's but nothing has been called. It's like these officials need to put some air in their whistles. I have seen too many cases this post-season where the officials are allowing offensive players to initiate contact by dropping the shoulder into the defensive player, which is clearing space for the offensive player an nothing is being called. Those need to be called because an advantage is being gained.

I don't see how you are saving the crew by guessing at a call that most officials think you got wrong.

Still waiting on you to state what the offensive player did wrong on this play.

And for those that are wondering...
 

(Haven't posted in a long while...good to see all this great discussion, even though I may not agree with all of it).

The officials in question were Melissa Barlow, Laura Morris, and Frank Steratore. I know Barlow still works in the WNBA (as of last season anyway) in addition to her DI duties.

Guess I'll pose the question: is Frank related to Gene (NFL and DI men's official)? I know Gene has sibilings in officiating, having read articles published elsewhere, but could not find anything that connected Frank to Gene.

Fred

Frank is Gene's brother and also officiates in the NFL.

I'm jumping in way late on this, but here's a couple things:

1) To the guy's question (bgtg19) about why the officials came together at 16 seconds left. There was a throw-in and the ball was kicked by the defender, but the clock started. By rule, the clock can't start on an illegal touch so they had to go to the monitor to find out what time to put back on. They do not have PTS in the tournament, so that's why they came together to put it back to 16.7

2) Now, in regards to the 2 block/charge calls - they were both 50/50 and I can see where everyone felt they were wrong, but here's the dilly on this - the official who called both calls matched her plays on both ends. Now, you all might say that she matched plays that were both bad, but at the end, they were both consistent on what were similar plays. Either way, for all who saw the next play, Baylor stole the ball, went to the FT line and made both to go up 1 with 9.1 secs to go.

3) The foul on Griner was obvious at 2.6. Now, should the center official had a first whistle on that play and by rule with womens' primaries - absolutely, but either maybe she didn't have an open look (maybe she just had a butt and back), and albeit the foul didn't look right or confident from the lead, the guy saved THE FREAKIN GAME by making a gutsy call that looked like he was waiting for the center official to have a whistle on it.

Its funny because we're all Final Four officials from our sofas or our living rooms or whatever place we're watching the game, and all of us who put on stripes have had plays where we go with our gut, we go back and look at tape, and then we bite our lips.

I'm sure those officials looked at the tape and they know they should've called more fouls, but regardless of that, the classless comments by the Baylor coach after the game gives no justification to the fact that Louisville shot almost 60% from the 3-pt line and if she would've never gotten down almost 3 TD's in the first place, she wouldn't have to go on a pissing rant about displacing blame on the stripes, when in fact, she should've gotten on her team about not playing perimeter defense.

Ok, back to just reading your interesting posts and I'm off my soapbox cameo. . .

First I do not think T guessed on this play. I firmly believe she gave every chance to the C to make the call because it was C's primary and T's secondary.

And after seeing the play over and over...I still believe and feel the Baylor player initiated the contact causing both players to go to the floor. By rule that is a charge.

I agree we all have our days. But the uncalled taunting, the play where the Louisville player was actually swinging punches towards Griner, and Griner getting popped in the face on one play, all with no whistles, are indefensible.

And at no point did Mulkey blame the officials for the loss.

I totally agree. How those things were not called baffles me when they have been in our heads about this kind of actions continuously. I know they have at the NCAA Men's side and certainly at the HS side. I was just shocked and it might have eliminated other actions if you give a T or penalize other situations. Then you allow the media and the coaches to claim you lost control of the game. I did not even these live, I saw them on highlight and was shocked nothing was called in those cases.

Peace

I agree with BadNewsRef and 24.7 on both of your posts. Some things are not indefensible and I think the crew did or will be explaining their approach to the game to the people that they need to and the crew will be evaluated accordingly from this game positive and negative.

However, I think the lack of discussing Baylor's coach's comments after the game has gotten me the most concerned. With all of the comments I have read in this thread....some of us might as well have been up right along side Baylor's coach during the press conference.

Her comments really don't concern me. She's just another coach venting in a news conference. She'll have to answer to somebody for that. My concern is folks saying she blamed the officials for the loss when she did no such thing.

To respond - should they have given a T to Schimmel when she squared up to Griner - absolutely -- because by rule, that's automatic. Why they didn't, I don't know because I don't know what the crew thought at that moment when it occurred. . .

We can say all we want on how the game could've been officiated better and what we left out there or what we didn't do out there, but at the end of the day, we all call what we see and there are times for ALL OF US, that we're going to see something that wasn't there and we're not going to see something that was right in front of us. . .

On a sidenote, in regards to mens' officials, I remember Kitts in the Western Kentucky-Kansas 1st round game stopping the freakin game during live play to address 2 players who squared up to each other and did nothing but talk to them, and then put the ball back in play, which by rule, you can't do because its essentially an inadverent whistle.

And then Corbett on the SD State-Oklahoma game disposing the ball to the Oklahoma player on a throw-in, he starts a count, the OK player loses the ball out of his hands, it goes live on the floor, and then Corbett blows his whistle, kills the play, takes the ball back and hands it back to the OK player, starts his count all over again like nothing ever happened. . .

But, I digress, because again, I was on my sofa, acting like I was all that and some future Final Four official.

In this era with media and everything being taped, you just can't do anything that can be looked at sideways because it gets exposed. So what we all know to be common sense and what might be better for the game we just can't do anymore because the rules have become as black and white as the stripes we wear thru the wonders of TV and DVD.

I think at the end of the day while we all post and critique, as a fellow stripe, my best feelings are with those officials because how those they do at those levels, regardless of what we all might think otherwise, is a reflection on all of us as stripes. . .

Jumping in late here - was busy with family yesterday. First thought was that the pc call was not good. And the whole "gotta have a whistle when players go to the floor" is not correct. We do need to know how they went to the floor, know what happened, but we don't need a whistle just because, and this play is the proof of that.

My second thought...I actually burst out laughing when the Baylor coach had her hissy fit. What in the world makes coaches think that going straight to the tearing off of the jacket is somehow intimidating to us? She looked like a clown. A clown that should have been whacked, but still a clown.

No idea why the earlier crap was not dealt with...but I think this game just cost those three any more games in this tournament.