i did use pivot foot non pivot foot in my previous post however seems the officials can't determine when the example player ended his dribble & started the step-through, so i used steps to make it clearer. but if you insist on using official terms i'll try:

A1 dribbles, while ball on hand in legal dribbling movement he ran on his left foot then right foot and holds the ball with 2 hands while establishing his left foot which he just landed on as his pivot foot and does a step-through which he lifts off his left pivot foot and steps on his non-pivoting right foot and jumps off his non-pivoting right foot. In this case we can clearly see he did a dribble left foot right foot, ends his dribble establishing his pivot foot and does a step through.

So in sort he did a dribble L,R ->ends dribble L (pivot foot), R shoots

maybe the forum needs to filter out the word step.

This a forum for officials to discuss officiating. It's not a place to come to figure out new techniques to use on your street ball buddies.

We are going to discuss what is or isn't illegal based on the rules and using rule book terminology.

Maybe the forum needs to filter you out.

The ball came to rest in his hand. This, by definition, ends the dribble.

i've already pointed out the rules you folks stated that allows unlimited steps taken on a dribble and the rule that allows you to establish a pivot foot and do a step through and am trying to discuss using an example scenario to determine whether it's a legal move or not.

we can't just call it illegal because the official aren't sure when the player ended his dribble and established his pivot.

the norm says we should call it travel if he took more than 3 s***s and shoots however interpretation on the 2 rules shows it's possible allow it if the referee managed to determine when the player ended his dribble & started his pivot/nonpivot steps.

of course i can end this discussion here because almost all places will call it travel should a person take 3 separate st**s before shooting and we just treat it as a norm and ignore the conflicting rules. But is this how officiating works?

This is becoming inane.

But no, that was not what he meant. It's that we don't care. Did the player displace the other player. Period. We don't give a flying flip whether he did it with his tookus, nor whether the contact occurred near the "tummy or crouch". Nor would we ever verbalize it that way with a coach.

Your obsession with counting steps is becoming inane as well. Go crack open a rulebook.
"we can't just call it illegal because the official aren't sure when the player ended his dribble and established his pivot."
And an English book while you're at it.
And yes, we are sure - that's our job. To make that determination. YOU can't make that determination. We must.

When a player ends his dribble the official on the ball then needs to determine which is his pivot. Any determination about travelling is based on that, period.

There are specific rules to how jump stops are officiated.

If a players can take 4-5 steps while the ball is touching his hand then the ball has come to rest and his dribble has ended.

I don't know what else you are looking for. Any question you ask about travelling needs to begin with "A1 ends his dribble with **** foot/feet on the floor" (**** = "right", "left", "neither", or "both").

You're seriously making this way too hard. There are a few things during a game that you can't know what it was until the follow on action.

When a player is dribbling and running, and his hand is sitting on the ball as he slowly brings it down, it seems legal, but if he never puts the ball down, I'm going to judge that he picked up his dribble at the point it sat in his hand. Sometimes you have to see a whole play in order to judge what happened.

I'm telling you in real time, at real speed, if a player is in mid dribble and keeps his hand on the ball for a couple of steps, then instead of putting the ball down for the next dribble, continues for another step and shoots, it's going to look a lot like he ended his dribble three steps before. That's what I'm going to call.

It has nothing to do with a discrepancy between "rules and norms" and everything to do with knowing the rules and how to apply them.

If you're not sure you can't call much of anything. That is what comes with experience in this business, an increased ability to see the play and be sure. You have been told the appropriate rules. If you're really interested, take the time and consider them while on the court. If you're looking for shortcuts and technicalities to use in "Gotcha!" situations in your pickup games, you came to the wrong place.

A dribble is pushing the ball to the ground. If he didn't push the ball to the ground then he wasn't still dribbling.

That's what I said in my post. :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=#olderthanilook;887114]I'd like to go back to the video again and talk about a couple of things. The T blows for the violation in this play. However, the camera "ball watches" and moves with MJ to the bucket even after the whistle which means the T's signal for violation goes unseen. There is a very brief moment where it looks as though the T gives a quick signal - and to me, it almost looks as though he show "illegal" dribble, as opposed to the traveling mechanic. (IMO, he doesn't use to hands to dribble, but from the T's angle, maybe that is what he saw. I'd be more inclined to go with a carry if I have anything at all).

Step Back ...
 

potato: Please stop talking about counting steps in regard to traveling. Officials don't count steps, we try to determine which foot is the pivot foot, and rule traveling, illegal dribble, carrying, palming, etc. when the player exceeds the limits placed upon him by the rules.

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6230/6...473e048e_m.jpg

The traveling rule is one of the most misunderstood rules in basketball. To start a dribble, the ball must be released before the pivot foot is lifted. On a pass or a shot, the pivot foot may be lifted, but may not return to the floor before the ball is released. A player may slide on the floor while trying to secure a loose ball until that player’s momentum stops. At that point that player cannot attempt to get up or rollover. A player securing a ball while on the floor cannot attempt to stand up unless that player starts a dribble. A player in this situation may also pass, shoot, or request a timeout. If the player is flat on his or her back, that player may sit up without violating.

A player must be holding the ball (with one very rare exception) in order to travel. A player can't travel while dribbling, while tapping the ball, while fumbling it, or while trying to recover a loose ball. During a fumble the player is not in control of the ball, and therefore, cannot be called for a traveling violation. A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball is unintentionally dropped or slips from a player’s grasp. After a player has ended a dribble and fumbled the ball, that player may recover the ball without violating. Any steps taken during the recovery of a fumble are not traveling, regardless of how far the ball goes and the amount of advantage that is gained. It is always legal to recover a fumble, even at the end of a dribble, however that player cannot begin a new dribble, which would be an illegal dribble violation. A player who fumbles the ball when receiving a pass may legally start a dribble.

The shooter can retrieve his or her own airball, if the referee considers it to be a shot attempt. The release ends team control. It is not a violation for that player to start another dribble at that point. When an airborne player keeps control of an attempted shot that is blocked and is unable to release the ball and returns to the floor with it, that player has not traveled; it is a held ball. If, in this situation, the shooter loses control of the ball because of the block, then this is simply a blocked shot and play continues. If, in this situation, the defender simply touches the ball, and the airborne shooter returns to the floor holding the ball, it’s a traveling violation. When an airborne player tries for goal, sees that the try will be blocked, purposely drops the ball, and picks up the ball after it hits the floor, that player has traveled by starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor.

Palming or carrying is when the ball comes to rest in the player's hand, and the player either travels with the ball, or dribbles a second time. There is no restriction as to how high a player may bounce the ball, provided the ball does not come to rest in a player’s hand. Steps taken during a dribble are not traveling, including several that are sometimes taken when a high dribble takes place. It is not possible for a player to travel during a dribble.