Why is this travel?
 

Michael Jordan travels 5 steps - YouTube

i've been told you can take as many steps as you want while dribbling. here he merely too 5 steps while ball is still in his hand and he wasn't palming or holding the ball.

Apparently the official that called this was not aware of the NBE rule that said you cannot use the words "Jordan" and "travel" in the same sentence.

The ball clearly came to rest in his hand, which ends the dribble.

how do you determine the ball came to a rest? it looks like a normal dribble just that Mike did quick steps under the normal dribble time frame that he achieved 5 steps.

alright let's just assume jordan is palming, so if he weren't palming and took the 5 steps, can he follow up with a layup before the ball bounces on the floor, like take off after the 5th step? I though step through only allows an extra step after lifting the pivot foot.

What is a normal dribble time frame? Come to rest is the wording of the rule telling when a dribble ends. The ball was in contact with the hand too long.
There is no specific amount of time, but the violation is obvious in the video.
If the call went against Jordan, you can believe it was real.

so if he weren't palming and it was a legal dribble and after he took the 5 steps, can he follow up with a layup/dunk before the next dribble, like take off after the 5th step?

If it was a legal dribble, he could take as many steps as he wanted.

and still go for a dunk/layup without another dribble? so say Jordan took 5 steps on his last dribble decide to go for the dunk when does his dribble end?

The dribble ends when the ball is touched with both hands simultaneously or comes to rest in one or both hands. At this point, refer to the pivot foot restrictions.

It's hard to imagine someone is able to take 7 steps with the ball on his hand before doing a layup or dunk.

In this case if Jordan was quicker with his feet and wasn't palming, he would do 5 steps in a dribble motion, decides to pick up the ball immediately and does a step through which means he took 7 steps with the ball on his hand (5 while dribbling 2 while holding).

Is there a video that shows similar moves?

Done with this thread.

All of a sudden have a craving for...
 

Hard to imagine such a play not taking so long that I didn't consider the dribble to be ended. It's not about the steps, though. It's about the duration of time his hand is in contact with the ball.

then someone will point out there's no rules saying how long a dribble should last.

also i believe many quick baby steps are achievable even in a short time frame.

and let's not talk about 5-10 steps.

imagine this: a dribbler goes one on one, hands in dribbling motion after 1 bounce, does a quick baby left/right/left moves to confuse the defender, he sees an opening on the right side decides to attack the basket immediately by taking a 2 step step-through without bouncing the ball, based on the rule that there is no limit on how many steps per dribble bounce, and that pivot foot is established the moment you pick up the dribble and you get an extra step on the non-pivot foot for stepping-through, you can do a continuation of 5 steps to attack the basket without re-bouncing the ball. It would be more should the hand still position in dribbling motion when he decide to take the 4th or 5th step forward so if the guy moves really quick it'd be 5-6 steps before he's considered finishing his dribble and another 2 step step through. Sounds awfully wrong and i've never seen anyone doing it but if we based on hand written rule it's achievable for someone really quick. Unless there's another rule to restrict such action.

If we take the Jordan clip, let's assume during that 5 steps, he did 3 steps while really dribbling, then palm it while taking the 4th & 5th steps & lifts off for a shot, would it be allowed?

He's either dribbling or he's holding the ball. Judging that is why we get paid the big bucks.

In practice it's not as hard as you seem to be describing it.

You also seem to want to define everything in overly measurable amounts. That's not the rule and not going to happen.

jenkins is right, po-tay-to (as samwise gamgee says it). Mash 'em, boil 'em, put 'em in a stew.....

Anyhow, a player is either dribbling or not. The dribble comes to an end when the player holds, passes, attempts a try for goal, is granted a time out, is fouled....or....wait for it.....

....when the ball comes to rest in his hand. If he dribbles after the ball comes to a rest, then the dribble is over because he committed a carrying violation.

If the ol' boy can manage to quadruple time it while dribbling and fit a dozen steps in between dribbles, more power to him. I've actually seen players do something similar - sorta do a standing sprint while maintaining a dribble. It can be confusing to lesser experienced defenders because it does look sorta look goofy, but legal.

As bob said, you're not getting a hard and fast measurement here in the rules. I didn't say it was impossible, I said it was hard to imagine. Jordan did a lot of things that were hard to imagine before he did them.

In your last question here, I've got traveling most likely, as by the time he takes those last couple of steps, he's definitely holding the ball, and there's no likely way I can distinguish when he started holding the ball if his hand was on it the whole time.

I'd like to go back to the video again and talk about a couple of things. The T blows for the violation in this play. However, the camera "ball watches" and moves with MJ to the bucket even after the whistle which means the T's signal for violation goes unseen. There is a very brief moment where it looks as though the T gives a quick signal - and to me, it almost looks as though he show "illegal" dribble, as opposed to the traveling mechanic. (IMO, he doesn't use to hands to dribble, but from the T's angle, maybe that is what he saw. I'd be more inclined to go with a carry if I have anything at all).

I'm watching this w/o earphones, so I can't hear what the announcers are saying (as if that would be of any real help). And, the youtube vid title is obviously about MJ taking 5 steps. So, maybe the author of the OP has been misguided from the beginning. Not sure.

Anyone else notice this or have input?

He ended the dribble and started another one. Did he move the pivot in between? Hard to say, but the bottom line is the same.

alright guys, let's just leave the extreme number of steps alone.

a 2 steps on a dribble seems normal right?

so let's just assume jordan was dribbling, he took 2 steps while the ball is on the hand with legit dribbling motion, is he allowed to immediately hold the ball, establishing a pivot foot, then steps on his now non-pivot foot and takes off for a layup/dunk?

this in turn would mean a 2 step dribble followed by a 2 step step-through without the ball bouncing on the floor between the 4 steps.

if any kind souls found any videos that shows similar situations it would be great.

Go back to the last sentence of my previous response. That's my answer to you latest question, potato.

Not necessarily saying he did or didn't end his dribble....if he did, I'm not sure what defined that moment when it ended. What do you have?

but if it's just a 2 step dribble, then holding the ball with both hand and does the 2 step step-through it won't be hard to judge when he ended his dribble would he?

in my earlier post & from the video it may be difficult to judge, but if it's just 2+2 or even 1+2 it's much easier to tell right?

If a player takes three steps with his hand on the ball and doesn't put another dribble down, I can't imagine I wouldn't call traveling.

I know, at this point, that you're just a fan. You seem to care about this stuff, though, even that your questions show a completely backassward way of looking at stuff. And you seem to love the game

I recommend you find a local association, join up, attend some clinics, and ref some games. Not only will this help you truly understand the underpinnings that will allow you to answer your own questions - but it will allow you to stay close to the game from a perspective you'll never get elsewhere. Who knows ... you might even like it enough to stick with it.

If spud were to become an official, I want to be there when he tells a coach that his player stuck his fleshy butt into the tummy/crouch region of his defender.

I with my own instinct would say it's a travel.

but which rule states that you can't. the rule doesn't limit how many steps you can take on each dribble, and that the rule allows 2 steps after you ended the dribble, technically speaking won't it be legal?

you see we are stuck between the norms & written rules, sometimes they don't tally with each other, and if they don't someone needs to redefine the rules. however as we know of it it'd take them 10 years to make an amendment.

seems to me you've never seen or believe it's possible to do so?

Again, "traveling" is based upon which foot becomes the pivot and what happens next. Not how many steps a player can take. You're looking at it "bassackwards" as another poster delicately stated in another post.

I'm getting a constant craving of "Mark this forum read".

i did use pivot foot non pivot foot in my previous post however seems the officials can't determine when the example player ended his dribble & started the step-through, so i used steps to make it clearer. but if you insist on using official terms i'll try:

A1 dribbles, while ball on hand in legal dribbling movement he ran on his left foot then right foot and holds the ball with 2 hands while establishing his left foot which he just landed on as his pivot foot and does a step-through which he lifts off his left pivot foot and steps on his non-pivoting right foot and jumps off his non-pivoting right foot. In this case we can clearly see he did a dribble left foot right foot, ends his dribble establishing his pivot foot and does a step through.

So in sort he did a dribble L,R ->ends dribble L (pivot foot), R shoots

maybe the forum needs to filter out the word step.

This a forum for officials to discuss officiating. It's not a place to come to figure out new techniques to use on your street ball buddies.

We are going to discuss what is or isn't illegal based on the rules and using rule book terminology.

Maybe the forum needs to filter you out.

The ball came to rest in his hand. This, by definition, ends the dribble.

i've already pointed out the rules you folks stated that allows unlimited steps taken on a dribble and the rule that allows you to establish a pivot foot and do a step through and am trying to discuss using an example scenario to determine whether it's a legal move or not.

we can't just call it illegal because the official aren't sure when the player ended his dribble and established his pivot.

the norm says we should call it travel if he took more than 3 s***s and shoots however interpretation on the 2 rules shows it's possible allow it if the referee managed to determine when the player ended his dribble & started his pivot/nonpivot steps.

of course i can end this discussion here because almost all places will call it travel should a person take 3 separate st**s before shooting and we just treat it as a norm and ignore the conflicting rules. But is this how officiating works?

This is becoming inane.

But no, that was not what he meant. It's that we don't care. Did the player displace the other player. Period. We don't give a flying flip whether he did it with his tookus, nor whether the contact occurred near the "tummy or crouch". Nor would we ever verbalize it that way with a coach.

Your obsession with counting steps is becoming inane as well. Go crack open a rulebook.
"we can't just call it illegal because the official aren't sure when the player ended his dribble and established his pivot."
And an English book while you're at it.
And yes, we are sure - that's our job. To make that determination. YOU can't make that determination. We must.

When a player ends his dribble the official on the ball then needs to determine which is his pivot. Any determination about travelling is based on that, period.

There are specific rules to how jump stops are officiated.

If a players can take 4-5 steps while the ball is touching his hand then the ball has come to rest and his dribble has ended.

I don't know what else you are looking for. Any question you ask about travelling needs to begin with "A1 ends his dribble with **** foot/feet on the floor" (**** = "right", "left", "neither", or "both").

You're seriously making this way too hard. There are a few things during a game that you can't know what it was until the follow on action.

When a player is dribbling and running, and his hand is sitting on the ball as he slowly brings it down, it seems legal, but if he never puts the ball down, I'm going to judge that he picked up his dribble at the point it sat in his hand. Sometimes you have to see a whole play in order to judge what happened.

I'm telling you in real time, at real speed, if a player is in mid dribble and keeps his hand on the ball for a couple of steps, then instead of putting the ball down for the next dribble, continues for another step and shoots, it's going to look a lot like he ended his dribble three steps before. That's what I'm going to call.

It has nothing to do with a discrepancy between "rules and norms" and everything to do with knowing the rules and how to apply them.

If you're not sure you can't call much of anything. That is what comes with experience in this business, an increased ability to see the play and be sure. You have been told the appropriate rules. If you're really interested, take the time and consider them while on the court. If you're looking for shortcuts and technicalities to use in "Gotcha!" situations in your pickup games, you came to the wrong place.

A dribble is pushing the ball to the ground. If he didn't push the ball to the ground then he wasn't still dribbling.

That's what I said in my post. :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=#olderthanilook;887114]I'd like to go back to the video again and talk about a couple of things. The T blows for the violation in this play. However, the camera "ball watches" and moves with MJ to the bucket even after the whistle which means the T's signal for violation goes unseen. There is a very brief moment where it looks as though the T gives a quick signal - and to me, it almost looks as though he show "illegal" dribble, as opposed to the traveling mechanic. (IMO, he doesn't use to hands to dribble, but from the T's angle, maybe that is what he saw. I'd be more inclined to go with a carry if I have anything at all).

Step Back ...
 

potato: Please stop talking about counting steps in regard to traveling. Officials don't count steps, we try to determine which foot is the pivot foot, and rule traveling, illegal dribble, carrying, palming, etc. when the player exceeds the limits placed upon him by the rules.

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6230/6...473e048e_m.jpg

The traveling rule is one of the most misunderstood rules in basketball. To start a dribble, the ball must be released before the pivot foot is lifted. On a pass or a shot, the pivot foot may be lifted, but may not return to the floor before the ball is released. A player may slide on the floor while trying to secure a loose ball until that player’s momentum stops. At that point that player cannot attempt to get up or rollover. A player securing a ball while on the floor cannot attempt to stand up unless that player starts a dribble. A player in this situation may also pass, shoot, or request a timeout. If the player is flat on his or her back, that player may sit up without violating.

A player must be holding the ball (with one very rare exception) in order to travel. A player can't travel while dribbling, while tapping the ball, while fumbling it, or while trying to recover a loose ball. During a fumble the player is not in control of the ball, and therefore, cannot be called for a traveling violation. A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball is unintentionally dropped or slips from a player’s grasp. After a player has ended a dribble and fumbled the ball, that player may recover the ball without violating. Any steps taken during the recovery of a fumble are not traveling, regardless of how far the ball goes and the amount of advantage that is gained. It is always legal to recover a fumble, even at the end of a dribble, however that player cannot begin a new dribble, which would be an illegal dribble violation. A player who fumbles the ball when receiving a pass may legally start a dribble.

The shooter can retrieve his or her own airball, if the referee considers it to be a shot attempt. The release ends team control. It is not a violation for that player to start another dribble at that point. When an airborne player keeps control of an attempted shot that is blocked and is unable to release the ball and returns to the floor with it, that player has not traveled; it is a held ball. If, in this situation, the shooter loses control of the ball because of the block, then this is simply a blocked shot and play continues. If, in this situation, the defender simply touches the ball, and the airborne shooter returns to the floor holding the ball, it’s a traveling violation. When an airborne player tries for goal, sees that the try will be blocked, purposely drops the ball, and picks up the ball after it hits the floor, that player has traveled by starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor.

Palming or carrying is when the ball comes to rest in the player's hand, and the player either travels with the ball, or dribbles a second time. There is no restriction as to how high a player may bounce the ball, provided the ball does not come to rest in a player’s hand. Steps taken during a dribble are not traveling, including several that are sometimes taken when a high dribble takes place. It is not possible for a player to travel during a dribble.