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-   -   Why is this travel? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/94534-why-travel.html)

#olderthanilook Wed Mar 27, 2013 08:45am
jenkins is right, po-tay-to (as samwise gamgee says it). Mash 'em, boil 'em, put 'em in a stew.....

Anyhow, a player is either dribbling or not. The dribble comes to an end when the player holds, passes, attempts a try for goal, is granted a time out, is fouled....or....wait for it.....

....when the ball comes to rest in his hand. If he dribbles after the ball comes to a rest, then the dribble is over because he committed a carrying violation.

If the ol' boy can manage to quadruple time it while dribbling and fit a dozen steps in between dribbles, more power to him. I've actually seen players do something similar - sorta do a standing sprint while maintaining a dribble. It can be confusing to lesser experienced defenders because it does look sorta look goofy, but legal.

Adam Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by potato (Post 887059)
then someone will point out there's no rules saying how long a dribble should last.

also i believe many quick baby steps are achievable even in a short time frame.

and let's not talk about 5-10 steps.

imagine this: a dribbler goes one on one, hands in dribbling motion after 1 bounce, does a quick baby left/right/left moves to confuse the defender, he sees an opening on the right side decides to attack the basket immediately by taking a 2 step step-through without bouncing the ball, based on the rule that there is no limit on how many steps per dribble bounce, and that pivot foot is established the moment you pick up the dribble and you get an extra step on the non-pivot foot for stepping-through, you can do a continuation of 5 steps to attack the basket without re-bouncing the ball. It would be more should the hand still position in dribbling motion when he decide to take the 4th or 5th step forward so if the guy moves really quick it'd be 5-6 steps before he's considered finishing his dribble and another 2 step step through. Sounds awfully wrong and i've never seen anyone doing it but if we based on hand written rule it's achievable for someone really quick. Unless there's another rule to restrict such action.

If we take the Jordan clip, let's assume during that 5 steps, he did 3 steps while really dribbling, then palm it while taking the 4th & 5th steps & lifts off for a shot, would it be allowed?
As bob said, you're not getting a hard and fast measurement here in the rules. I didn't say it was impossible, I said it was hard to imagine. Jordan did a lot of things that were hard to imagine before he did them.

In your last question here, I've got traveling most likely, as by the time he takes those last couple of steps, he's definitely holding the ball, and there's no likely way I can distinguish when he started holding the ball if his hand was on it the whole time.

#olderthanilook Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by potato (Post 887001)
Michael Jordan travels 5 steps - YouTube

i've been told you can take as many steps as you want while dribbling. here he merely too 5 steps while ball is still in his hand and he wasn't palming or holding the ball.
I'd like to go back to the video again and talk about a couple of things. The T blows for the violation in this play. However, the camera "ball watches" and moves with MJ to the bucket even after the whistle which means the T's signal for violation goes unseen. There is a very brief moment where it looks as though the T gives a quick signal - and to me, it almost looks as though he show "illegal" dribble, as opposed to the traveling mechanic. (IMO, he doesn't use to hands to dribble, but from the T's angle, maybe that is what he saw. I'd be more inclined to go with a carry if I have anything at all).

I'm watching this w/o earphones, so I can't hear what the announcers are saying (as if that would be of any real help). And, the youtube vid title is obviously about MJ taking 5 steps. So, maybe the author of the OP has been misguided from the beginning. Not sure.

Anyone else notice this or have input?

just another ref Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by #olderthanilook (Post 887114)
I'd like to go back to the video again and talk about a couple of things. The T blows for the violation in this play. However, the camera "ball watches" and moves with MJ to the bucket even after the whistle which means the T's signal for violation goes unseen. There is a very brief moment where it looks as though the T gives a quick signal - and to me, it almost looks as though he show "illegal" dribble, as opposed to the traveling mechanic. (IMO, he doesn't use to hands to dribble, but from the T's angle, maybe that is what he saw. I'd be more inclined to go with a carry if I have anything at all).

I'm watching this w/o earphones, so I can't hear what the announcers are saying (as if that would be of any real help). And, the youtube vid title is obviously about MJ taking 5 steps. So, maybe the author of the OP has been misguided from the beginning. Not sure.

Anyone else notice this or have input?
He ended the dribble and started another one. Did he move the pivot in between? Hard to say, but the bottom line is the same.

potato Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:30pm
alright guys, let's just leave the extreme number of steps alone.

a 2 steps on a dribble seems normal right?

so let's just assume jordan was dribbling, he took 2 steps while the ball is on the hand with legit dribbling motion, is he allowed to immediately hold the ball, establishing a pivot foot, then steps on his now non-pivot foot and takes off for a layup/dunk?

this in turn would mean a 2 step dribble followed by a 2 step step-through without the ball bouncing on the floor between the 4 steps.

if any kind souls found any videos that shows similar situations it would be great.

Adam Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:47pm
Go back to the last sentence of my previous response. That's my answer to you latest question, potato.

#olderthanilook Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 887124)
He ended the dribble and started another one. Did he move the pivot in between? Hard to say, but the bottom line is the same.
Not necessarily saying he did or didn't end his dribble....if he did, I'm not sure what defined that moment when it ended. What do you have?

potato Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:54pm
but if it's just a 2 step dribble, then holding the ball with both hand and does the 2 step step-through it won't be hard to judge when he ended his dribble would he?

in my earlier post & from the video it may be difficult to judge, but if it's just 2+2 or even 1+2 it's much easier to tell right?

Adam Wed Mar 27, 2013 01:09pm
If a player takes three steps with his hand on the ball and doesn't put another dribble down, I can't imagine I wouldn't call traveling.

MD Longhorn Wed Mar 27, 2013 01:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by potato (Post 887145)
but if it's just a 2 step dribble, then holding the ball with both hand and does the 2 step step-through it won't be hard to judge when he ended his dribble would he?

in my earlier post & from the video it may be difficult to judge, but if it's just 2+2 or even 1+2 it's much easier to tell right?
I know, at this point, that you're just a fan. You seem to care about this stuff, though, even that your questions show a completely backassward way of looking at stuff. And you seem to love the game

I recommend you find a local association, join up, attend some clinics, and ref some games. Not only will this help you truly understand the underpinnings that will allow you to answer your own questions - but it will allow you to stay close to the game from a perspective you'll never get elsewhere. Who knows ... you might even like it enough to stick with it.

#olderthanilook Wed Mar 27, 2013 01:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MD Longhorn (Post 887155)
I know, at this point, that you're just a fan. You seem to care about this stuff, though, even that your questions show a completely backassward way of looking at stuff. And you seem to love the game

I recommend you find a local association, join up, attend some clinics, and ref some games. Not only will this help you truly understand the underpinnings that will allow you to answer your own questions - but it will allow you to stay close to the game from a perspective you'll never get elsewhere. Who knows ... you might even like it enough to stick with it.
If spud were to become an official, I want to be there when he tells a coach that his player stuck his fleshy butt into the tummy/crouch region of his defender.

potato Wed Mar 27, 2013 01:17pm
I with my own instinct would say it's a travel.

but which rule states that you can't. the rule doesn't limit how many steps you can take on each dribble, and that the rule allows 2 steps after you ended the dribble, technically speaking won't it be legal?

you see we are stuck between the norms & written rules, sometimes they don't tally with each other, and if they don't someone needs to redefine the rules. however as we know of it it'd take them 10 years to make an amendment.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam (Post 887153)
If a player takes three steps with his hand on the ball and doesn't put another dribble down, I can't imagine I wouldn't call traveling.

potato Wed Mar 27, 2013 01:18pm
seems to me you've never seen or believe it's possible to do so?

Quote:
Originally Posted by #olderthanilook (Post 887161)
If spud were to become an official, I want to be there when he tells a coach that his player stuck his fleshy butt into the tummy/crouch region of his defender.

#olderthanilook Wed Mar 27, 2013 01:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by potato (Post 887162)
I with my own instinct would say it's a travel.

but which rule states that you can't. the rule doesn't limit how many steps you can take on each dribble, and that the rule allows 2 steps after you ended the dribble, technically speaking won't it be legal?

you see we are stuck between the norms & written rules, sometimes they don't tally with each other, and if they don't someone needs to redefine the rules. however as we know of it it'd take them 10 years to make an amendment.
Again, "traveling" is based upon which foot becomes the pivot and what happens next. Not how many steps a player can take. You're looking at it "bassackwards" as another poster delicately stated in another post.

Raymond Wed Mar 27, 2013 01:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by canuckrefguy (Post 887051)
I'm getting a constant craving of "Mark this forum read".


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