30 point rule

[Hawks Coach]

Had my first experience with the 30 point blow-out rule at YBOA nationals in FL and have to say I can't stand it. We had two games where the margin got real big really quick, and we began to adjust. Unfortunately, while we were learning to play at a higher level, the clock started running and our game got shortened an unbelievable amount. They even ran it during FTs. And the real problem was that you had to cut the margin to 20 to get the clock going again. I don't like, won't like it. We went down to play, so let us play and let the chips fall where they may.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Had my first experience with the 30 point blow-out rule at YBOA nationals in FL and have to say I can't stand it. We had two games where the margin got real big really quick, and we began to adjust. Unfortunately, while we were learning to play at a higher level, the clock started running and our game got shortened an unbelievable amount. They even ran it during FTs. And the real problem was that you had to cut the margin to 20 to get the clock going again. I don't like, won't like it. We went down to play, so let us play and let the chips fall where they may.

I agree about games at those higher levels. It really isn't fair, and it's not what most people at that level want.

I do think it has a place at the school level, though, and that it can be a useful tool. I can't see that it would be all that difficult to ask coaches before the game what they want to do.

[Mark Padgett]

The reason I don't like a rule that changes a clock from stop to running due to the point differential is that is short-changes the players who have paid to play a full game. Even in HS, players pay to play and they should get their money's worth.

[CYO Butch]

I agree with you Hawks Coach. I've never thought the running clock was the way to deal with blow outs. I'll not start the debates all over again, but I'll never believe that shortening playing time is the right answer.

[Hawks Coach]

One other thing. As humiliating as the blowout is, it is more humiliating to have an artificial margin at which point you are officially blown out. You find yourself coaching and playing to avoid the embarrassment of that clock starting to run. So if the purpose is to relieve some of the humiliation, I think it had the opposite effect.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
One other thing. As humiliating as the blowout is, it is more humiliating to have an artificial margin at which point you are officially blown out. You find yourself coaching and playing to avoid the embarrassment of that clock starting to run. So if the purpose is to relieve some of the humiliation, I think it had the opposite effect.

Years ago, in our local rec league, we instituted a rule that we took the score off the board if the spread was 20 points or more. We thought it would promote sportsmanship. Just the opposite happened, however.

We found kids were trying to "turn the score off" on the other team and then bragging about it in school. It became an incentive.

After one year, we eliminated that rule. I think the same might happen with the running clock mercy rule.

[mick]

Originally posted by Mark Padgett
Even in HS, players pay to play and they should get their money's worth.

If a team gets mercied, it got its money's worth.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Oh boy, I do not know how to respond to this thread, since I officate in the YBOA Nationals.

I checked my diary and found the following results:

Last year in the YBOA Girls' I officiated 19 games and 4 of them went to running clock and in 3 of those games the team that lost was a over-matched foreign team. In last year's YBOA Boys' I officiated 23 games and 4 went to running clock.

This year I officiated in the Police Athletic League Boys'/Girls' National. I officiated 19 games and 2 of them went to running clock and suprisingly it was in the boys' 16U division. In the first game the teams were really well matched but the losing team got made at each other and then just quit playing, in their next game they mercied their opponent. In the second game the teams were mismatched from the start. The losing coach told me before the game that he expected to get mercied.

Before my knee gave out see Hawks Coach's "noise maker" thread for the details, I officiated 23 games in the Girls' Nationals two weeks ago and had only 2 games go to running clock.

I really do not know what to say. I agree that the teams pay a lot of money to play in these tournaments and the argument could be made that they are not getting their money's worth. But as a parent of boys' who play sports, there are times when you just do not want to see your children embarassed.

And as an official, when the 5th game of the day rolls around, and your first 4 games have been nail biters with maybe an overtime or two thrown in, you really do not mind getting a game that ends up as a running clock game, but only if the winning team earns that running clock. No official should give the game to the better team just to get the game over. Actually, a better scenario for that last game of the day is if one or both teams fail to show. Forfeit and still get paid.

[JRutledge]

In football (in my state) we have a 40 point "mercy rule" in place. What happens in football, officials do everything in their power to make this happen. I know many officials that spend more time worried about the running clock and debating over what can and cannot be done during this time, they stop officiating like normal. You have more guys trying to get out of there, than just calling what happens. And it totally seems to influence how you call the game with holding penalties (that are very warranted btw) and other things that could potentially stop the clock. Now in football someone can get hurt because of the type of collisions that can continue when the game is in play. Basketball does not have that problem. All that can be hurt for the most part are egos. And if that is all, that can be delt with considering that the clock runs most of the time anyway. You are not in a major threat of having a kid taken out on a stretcher worrying about whether he can walk again. That does happen in football and the "mercy rule" has it's place in that game. But in basketball, I see no purpose for it. And if all we are worried about is embarrassment and egos, then the kids should not be playing sports or anything competitive to begin with.

[Hawks Coach]

MTD
Did you do any 13U YBOA games? IF so, do you remember any of the teams you had?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
MTD
Did you do any 13U YBOA games? IF so, do you remember any of the teams you had?

Coach:

I assume you are asking about this year's YBOA Girls' Nationals. Yes, I did, but none of the teams were from Maryland. Last year I also officiated some 13U games but once again none of them were from Maryland.

As far as last year's YBOA Boys' Nationals I officiated games involving the following teams from Maryland:

Prince George Jaguars
Prince William Metro Thunder
Metro Sixers
Ballhandlers

and they were in the 9U, 10U, and 12U age divisions.

MTD, Sr.

[Nevadaref]

Hawks Coach, I understand your point about paying for playing time and think it has great merit, but would like you to consider the blowout game from the viewpoint of an official trying to improve. We pay for court time too!

Let's assume that the official is not local and so has traveled to the tournament at his own expense and is also having to pay for a hotel, meals, and maybe even a rental car. Now, some of these expenses are going to be off-set by the game fees, but it is likely that the official will lose money on the endeavor. So why does the official do this?

For example, I flew to Las Vegas this week and worked 14 games at the Adidas Big Time tournament which attracted 400 teams of HS eligible boys from all over the country. I paid $150 for the flight, $105($35 a night) for a hotel room, and $180 for a rental car. I was paid $378 ($27/game) for the games. That's a loss already and I haven't even included my meals and gatorade!
I knew going into the event that I would lose money by going. So why would I go? Answer: for fun and to improve. The same reasons that you and your players attend these tournaments.
I wanted to see some of the best HS players in the nation play fast-paced, high-caliber basketball. I needed to see lots of above the rim play. In short, I wanted to test my officiating skills at a level of play that is simply not available in my local area.
We played two 16 minute stop-clock halves. I had a game that was 44-7 at the 8 minute mark of the first half and ended 113-69. This tournament did not use a running clock, but let's consider what would happen if they did. First, the winning team would not have put up 113 points. Kids, especially boys, always try to score 100 on somebody. This only leads to hurt feelings and poor sportmanship situations. (Like trying to dunk on somebody.) Second, the tournament would certainly be able stay on schedule. Don't you expect to play your games on their scheduled times and plan your teams meals and other activities around those times at a tournament? What if there had been a double OT game earlier in the day? I had two of those down there. The running clock game would allow the site to catch up. This was important for this tourney since the last game of the day at some gyms was starting at 10:20 PM and finishing near midnight. Maybe the tournament has to pay the security guards extra past midnight or there is some other expense, so they really don't want to be late. Perhaps the running clock mercy rule would ensure that the tournament wouldn't have to fear extra costs and thus could hold down the cost to the teams?
You would certainly like that, right?
Third, both the kids and the officials lose some time on the court. But the question to ask here is, is it quality time? Are the kids trying to execute an offense are they exerting themselves on the defensive end? If not, then it is likely that there isn't going to be much for me to officiate, and I am also likely not learning much from this time on the court. Perhaps I could better use the time to rest and be strong and sharp for my next double OT game where every call could make a difference.
Coach, in summary, what I am asking the members of this forum is simply, "What do we learn from blowout games, and do/can we really improve during them?"
My feeling is that both teams kind of quit when the score gets lopsided and that it is rather hard for an official to improve his game in this situation.
I am for the running clock because of this. I don't care about the money issue. If I did, I wouldn't even go to the tournament.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Nevadaref

Coach, in summary, what I am asking the members of this forum is simply, "What do we learn from blowout games, and do/can we really improve during them?"

Simply because you prefer working a 3 OT barnburner does not mean you are excused from giving 100% in a blowout. There's plenty to work on in a blowout, they have a dynamic all their own.

BTW, where did you find a $35/night room in LV? On the other hand maybe I don't wanna know...

:shudder:

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
[/B]

BTW, where did you find a $35/night room in LV? On the other hand maybe I don't wanna know...

[/B][/QUOTE]The maid was $500/night,though.

[Hawks Coach]

not the refs. Yes, you may go because you derive a benefit from working hihg level games with high level refs and players.

We, on the other hand, work all year with the goal of going to nationals and playing the best in the country. We welcome the chance to play great team, and if we get blown out, so what. We are learning the entire time. We learn more toward the end after we have adjusted to the team we are playing. We play interim scores, play to go five minutes and cut into a margin, etc. We are also playing teams that we will probably never see again. We played 6 teams of the 28 that came, and not all of those 28 will ever come again. Unlike local tournaments and leagues, where we can ensure we get more opportunities against our opponents, we are playing people that happened to qualify, paid to attend, and got assigned to our pool. Not likely that the same combination will occur ever again.

As for your finances, I am not sure you have listed all income. You are building skills and adding substance to your officiating resume, which may lead to higher level and higher paying games next winter. Your attendance is an investment, as well as an opportunity to see great players up close every day. Regardless, you are out about $50 after having a great experience in Vegas. We, on the other hand, shell out nearly $10,000 for a team and entourage to travel to and stay one week in Florida.

On balance, I can't see why we should care whether extending a game meets your goals. We are financing the whole operation, and should get to play it out.