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Todd VandenAkker Fri Sep 29, 2000 07:53am

OK, I haven't been around on this forum for a while, and topics seem a bit slow right now, so here's a question posed to me by another veteran official last night: Throw-in on sideline near half-court for Team A, following brief delay for subs to come in and out. Players position themselves in A's front court, anticipating the throw-in, but a Team B player steps OOB to receive the ball without the official noticing the wrong color. He hands her the ball, and she promptly throws it to a teammate who streaks down to her own basket for an uncontested layup, while everyone else is standing on the other end of the court. The official, being probably semi-conscious, doesn't even grasp what has happened until after the basket is made.

So the question is: Ignoring for the moment whether Player B knowingly accepted the ball incorrectly, do you follow the book by swallowing your pride and NOT correcting the mistake (it's not technically a correctable error), or do you call it back, wipe out the bucket, and re-administer the throw-in to the correct team? I.e., do you follow the book to the letter, or do you do the "right" or "fair" thing?

Huskerblue Fri Sep 29, 2000 08:09am

Everyone knew what was supposed to happen. I would say do the right thing and bring it back. It's the fairest thing to do.

mick Fri Sep 29, 2000 08:24am

Quote:

Originally posted by Todd VandenAkker
....
So the question is: Ignoring for the moment whether Player B knowingly accepted the ball incorrectly, do you follow the book by swallowing your pride and NOT correcting the mistake (it's not technically a correctable error), or do you call it back, wipe out the bucket, and re-administer the throw-in to the correct team? I.e., do you follow the book to the letter, or do you do the "right" or "fair" thing?

Todd,
Live with such a mistake. Do not attempt to change or correct the uncorrectable. Apologize, explain, live with the abuse that is earned. When we screw up badly, we remember.
mick

BktBallRef Fri Sep 29, 2000 09:22am

Mick is right. You have to live with such a mistake. It doesn't really matter what is fair. Is it fair to call a foul on a clean bock? No, it isn't but it happens. Live with the mistake and learn from it.

Tony

DrC. Fri Sep 29, 2000 10:07am

Todd, Welcome Back... I was wondering where you've been. You're usually very active on this board.

I thought that was a correctable error. I seem to remember we had a discussion last Feb that as long as the ball was not made live after the next dead ball, it was correctable.

Plus, if the team that was to receive the ball seemed confused, I would definitely correct it. If nobody else noticed it, maybe then you let it go and have a stiff drink after the game and don't forget to be more careful next time.

[Edited by DrC. on Sep 29th, 2000 at 12:42 PM]

Brian Watson Fri Sep 29, 2000 10:16am

I feel depends on where you realize it. If the girl jumps in and grabs the ball (I have had this happen) you just blow everything dead before things get going and reset with the proper team. I you have let it get to the point where a basket is being scored (as described), then you have a learning situation. Suck it up, hold the T, and take what the coach is about to give you, because you earned it. On a side note, where was this guys' partner? When I make final eye contact to let my partner know I'm ready, I alsways glance to make sure we have the right team coming in. It is just a thing I do, and in this case it might have saved the need for that ref to break out butt implants.

Todd - Did this actually happen, or was this just a "what if"?

Bart Tyson Fri Sep 29, 2000 10:44am

OK Todd, You have to have a feel for the game and make your decission based on the game situation. The obvious is team B is up by 20. Bring it back for a redo. College game i favor on doing the right thing. All things being equal, in most cases i would bring the ball back. You worded this in such a way as it might be too late. At the very minimum i would stop play and explain to both coaches MY mistake and take the heat from the coach. Last thing If close game toward the end of game, I'm doing a redo.

PAULK1 Fri Sep 29, 2000 10:50am

The dreaded dead ball mechanics claims another victim!
While this error is not correctable maybe the things that led up to the error can be.

From the time the whistle was blown the official whose resposibility to inbound the ball should have gone to the spot, held the ball on his side to which it was going, let your partner bring in the subs(unless after a foul) let your partner get to his position, both count players, make eye contact then place the ball at the disposal of the thrower-in. Its always not doing the little things that get us in the most trouble. During delays or time outs is not our chance to rest it is the time for us to communicate the most.

mick Fri Sep 29, 2000 11:36am

Quote:

Originally posted by Bart Tyson
OK Todd, You have to have a feel for the game and make your decission based on the game situation. The obvious is team B is up by 20. Bring it back for a redo. College game i favor on doing the right thing. All things being equal, in most cases i would bring the ball back. You worded this in such a way as it might be too late. At the very minimum i would stop play and explain to both coaches MY mistake and take the heat from the coach. Last thing If close game toward the end of game, I'm doing a redo.
Bart,
I'm thinking you wouldn't "redo", cuz you wouldn't even get in that predicament.
mick

Todd VandenAkker Fri Sep 29, 2000 12:32pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Brian Watson

Todd - Did this actually happen, or was this just a "what if"?

Yes, actually the veteran official who raised the issue to me sheepishly admitted it happened to him (he's a good ref, but had a temporary mental lapse). I thought it would raise some interesting replies, since it's always tough to go out on a limb and suggest NOT following the letter-of-the-law in such situations. If we take it upon ourselves too often to decide what is "good for the game" and do things differently than the book tells us, we risk losing some credibility ("He always just does things his own way.") and consistency among our fellow officials.

That said, I would tend to agree with Bart in that how I would handle that situation would depend on WHEN I discovered my mistake and what the game circumstances are. If I realized it quickly as the throw-in is made and the dribbler is heading the "wrong" way, I would whistle the play dead immediately and start over. If it's a blowout game and the incorrect basket has been made by the losing team, I might simply eat crow, explain to the coaches that I screwed up but can't change it, then get on with the game. If the team ahead in the blowout was the one that scored, I'd probably bring it back after explaining my screwup (the losing team is already demoralized, without me adding more their nightmare). The harder scenario, I think, is if the game is reasonably close and what you do can impact the game. By rule, we can't change things. Yet, if everyone in the gym knows it's an obvious error, I doubt one would get significant protest by explaining that it was the official's mistake and that we're going to re-set the clock and re-administer the throw in. So, I know there are some who will disagree that we have any choice in the matter, but my take on how to handle this specific situation is . . . "It depends."

[Edited by Todd VandenAkker on Oct 2nd, 2000 at 03:11 PM]

DrC. Fri Sep 29, 2000 12:51pm

Ok, then tell me why this is different then the
"PLAY OF THE WEEK for BASKETBALL" on the front Page of
this forum. If we can add points for a CORRECTION, why then can't we take away.
Todd, I understand what you mean by it depends, but let's say it was a close H.S. Varsity game and 2 arch rivals.
You could be eating and receiving more than crow after the game.

Mark Padgett Fri Sep 29, 2000 01:12pm

Of course we should all strive to do what's fair. Sometimes, you just have to be creative to do it. Try this next time something like this happens. Don't count the basket, put the time back on the clock (if that's critical at that point), give the ball to the correct team and explain to everyone that one of your partners blew his whistle before the ball was inbounded, thereby creating a deal ball and nullifying the play. If the coach objects, just say he must not have heard the whistle, but it was blown nevertheless.

PAULK1 Fri Sep 29, 2000 01:28pm

Lets say its a close H.S. varsity game, lets say you stopped play took away the score and gave the ball back
to the team it was supposed to go to, lets say the team
whose score you took away lost by 1 point, Now they decide
protest under the condition that you misapplied a rule how are you going to explain to that state commisioner that you
knew the rule but decided you would apply your own solution
to the problem because you felt guilty for screwing it up in the first place. remember the old adage 2 wrongs don't make a right. It depends might be the right answer for
different levels of play(younger rec league)but when the stakes get higher watch out.

Gary Brendemuehl Fri Sep 29, 2000 04:43pm

I agree with every one who says to do what is fair. The question is what is fair? The stated intent and purpose of the rules

"... are intended to create a balance of play; to provide equal opportunity between the offense and the defense; ... to create an atmosphere of sportsmanship and fair play...".

Correctly applying the rule relating to the wrong team inbounding the ball results in fair play. Setting aside the rule (or making up your own) results in unfair play.

In regard to Mark Padgett's creative solution, I can only say that I am disappointed in his response. I have read his posts on this and other forums and respect what he has to say. But Mark, I think you kicked this one. The common response of "Are you questioning my judgement or my integrity?" by a referee to a coach's complaint of unfair application of the rules would have to be answered by "Both" in this case.

But then, I am

Just a Coach

hoopsrefBC Fri Sep 29, 2000 05:02pm

Quote:

Originally posted by DrC.
Ok, then tell me why this is different then the
"PLAY OF THE WEEK for BASKETBALL" on the front Page of
this forum. If we can add points for a CORRECTION, why then can't we take away.
Todd, I understand what you mean by it depends, but let's say it was a close H.S. Varsity game and 2 arch rivals.
You could be eating and receiving more than crow after the game.

You can take away points, two direct situations that i know of are: 1. The scorekeepers incorrectly awards three instead of two on the scorebook( error is found before approval of the book),or 2. an incorrect shooter attemps and makes free throws.(correctable error). cancell points and award shots to correct shooter.

The key here is that the officials mistake in inbounding the ball to the wrong team isn't correctable.
Game Management People!!!

keep smiling
SH

Mark Padgett Fri Sep 29, 2000 08:06pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Gary Brendemuehl
[In regard to Mark Padgett's creative solution, I can only say that I am disappointed in his response. I have read his posts on this and other forums and respect what he has to say. But Mark, I think you kicked this one. The common response of "Are you questioning my judgement or my integrity?" by a referee to a coach's complaint of unfair application of the rules would have to be answered by "Both" in this case.

But then, I am

Just a Coach [/B]
So you think the game should be determined by an official's mistake? How would you like it if the "mistake" went against your team? Besides - I am absolutely positive my partner blew his whistle.

mick Fri Sep 29, 2000 08:15pm


So you think the game should be determined by an official's mistake? How would you like it if the "mistake" went against your team? Besides - I am absolutely positive my partner blew his whistle. [/QUOTE]


Mark,
Interesting possibilities....
mick

PAULK1 Fri Sep 29, 2000 08:52pm

And when the coach sends the game tape to the state be sure to stick to your story! Be creative when the need arises
but not on a cut and dry rule that is there to guide you. There was a crew in another sport here that decided they knew what was fair contrary to rule and they ended up suspended by our state for 5 games and fined the amount of 6 games (the 5 suspended and the one they booted). No one in that crew has worked a playoff game since is that fair?

Admin Fri Sep 29, 2000 08:58pm

This discussion has nothing to do with the rules, but rather whether or not we are going to decide to intentionally set aside a rule (which is very clear in this particular case).

I refer you to the NF Case Book:

<blockquote><B>7.5.2B. Play:</B> Team A is awarded a throw-in near the division line. The administering official by mistake, puts the ball at B1's disposel. B1 completes the throw-in and Team B subsequently scores a goal. <B>Ruling:</B> No correction can be made for the mistake by the official.</blockquote>So, what are you going to do? Go against what is clearly in the rule book?? As officials, we don't have the authorization to set aside a rule just because we don't like it, or the outcome of it.

If you screw this up, it is your fault and there is nothing that you can do about it. Setting aside the rule will only make matters worse.

Think about the last time you saw an NCAA Division I game where one official signaled a charge and the other a block. What did they do? They went to a double foul call. Why? Because that is the <B>rule</B>. Setting aside that rule in an attempt to avoid some embarassment will compound the problem.

The heart of the issue is fairness, and if some officials choose to set aside certain rules simply to save face, or for any reason at all, the game is not being played fairly at all.

Todd VandenAkker Sat Sep 30, 2000 11:01am

Quote:

Originally posted by Bradley Batt
If you screw this up, it is your fault and there is nothing that you can do about it. Setting aside the rule will only make matters worse.

Think about the last time you saw an NCAA Division I game where one official signaled a charge and the other a block. What did they do? They went to a double foul call. Why? Because that is the <B>rule</B>. Setting aside that rule in an attempt to avoid some embarassment will compound the problem.

The heart of the issue is fairness, and if some officials choose to set aside certain rules simply to save face, or for any reason at all, the game is not being played fairly at all.

Proceeding in a manner differing from the Rules Book is never a light matter. Yet, if the issue is REALLY about fairness in this specific scenario, then depending on the game circumstances, correcting the error so there is "no harm done" to either team may still be the "right" thing to do. Blindly following the dictum of the Case Book situation mentioned does not necessarily make it the fair thing to do, particularly if in the official's judgment everyone will accept a re-do. In fact, it may be that the only persons considering it UNFAIR to correct the situation are those who cling to the letter of the law--the coaches, players and fans may shake their collective heads (or worse) at the official, but chances are they will accept the correction as the proper procedure. The simultaneous block and charge call in that college game is not an analogous situation, since it is not a blatant error per se that would have an obvious correct solution.

I'm not saying the official SHOULD correct the inbounds mistake and resulting basket, but I am suggesting that he should consider the game circumstances and then use his discretion as to whether to allow the goal or bring it back. Game management itself is not necessarily facilitated by strict adherence to every rule--we allow flexibility in many situations by "passing" on certain calls--but by how the game officials enforce and administer the rules. Correcting this obvious error may, in fact, make the most sense from a game management standpoint if the officials determine it would be the best course of action in that particular game, even if it isn't quite what the rule book says.

Jerry Baldwin Sat Sep 30, 2000 11:29am

I seldom disagree with Bradley but, I find all the posts interesting and I agree that it all depends on the score and time remaining. If the score is close and the game could be determined by the mistake that I or my partner has made, rule book not withstanding, I am going to bring it back. I will then go to the coach of the team who just scored and explain I take the basket off and give the ball to the correct team or I call a delay of game 'T' on the player who made the throw in, rule 10-3-7. Rule 2-3 can also be used in this situation. The rule book does not specially cover this event, but does define correctable errors, which this clearly does not fit. My one over-riding rule is that the officials shall not, if possible, determine the outcome of the game by an official screw up. Example, many of us have corrected the AP arrow when the table forgot to change the direction. If I catch the mistake before a score is made or a change of possesion, I'll bring it back, by the book I can't do that. It is a table mistake of which I am responsible. Very few coaches will complain when you do what is right.

[Edited by Jerry Baldwin on Sep 30th, 2000 at 11:37 AM]

PAULK1 Sat Sep 30, 2000 01:54pm

One of the biggest things we take heat for is consistency
of our calls. There are many who scoff at those who follow the letter of the rule book and other associated pubs and
believe that the those are just mere guidelines to help them call the game they way they think it should be called. They will throw out pharses like game flow or game management, meanwhile all the coach sees is his rebounder getting hacked on the arm not losing control and a no call while his player
does the same thing to a guard out front and a foul. He sees
an arrow mistake one night that is not corrected and then this throw-in situation the next week that is. He sees no handchecking calls the first half when his team was down 15
but 2 in the last 2 minutes after his team clawed it way back to within 3. I wonder if this is why they set it out so clearly in the case book so that it might be called one way every game and not left up to the official to make his own decision....And you wonder why they perceive us to be partial.

BktBallRef Sat Sep 30, 2000 04:54pm

It would seem to me that the case book play below is very clear.

7.5.2B. Play: Team A is awarded a throw-in near the division line. The administering official by mistake, puts the ball at B1's disposel. B1 completes the throw-in and Team B subsequently scores a goal. Ruling: No correction can be made for the mistake by the official.

When the play described is identical to the case book play, how can you guys say that you should use your discretion? If the NF wanted this to be a correctable error situation, they would have included it in rule 2-10. What right do you have to make up your own rules? When officials use terms like "game management" to make a case for what is contrary to the rules of the game, you make the game a farce.

Don't compound one mistake by making a second mistake.


Brian Watson Sat Sep 30, 2000 10:57pm

I think there are many points that are coming out, and I think, for the most part, most are right.

I think how this situation is handled, depends a lot on the state and level where it takes place. The state is responsible for all interpretations of the rules, case book included. And middle school is for learning. For the kids, coaches, and refs. But at the higher levels you need to really consider your actions.

Personally (in my state), I would not want to put myself on the line, by lying, when I know the game tape will not back me up. I know the commish's will be unhappy I kicked the call, but if I apply the proper rule, they will back me to the end. I can't even imagine how many tiny pieces my license would be ripped in, by not applying the proper rule and lying on top of it.

Also, Paul brings up one of my biggest pet peeves: "This is the first time all year you called that".

I get his more in Track and Volleyball, but it happens all the time. Refs "looking" the other way and not enforcing what <u>they</u> consider minor rules (proper uni's, getting rosters in etc.), but they do matter, especially in the state tourneys. Why will you call it when the state commish is looking over your shoulder, but not when it is a mid-season game. I hate to be a tool, but we need to apply the rules on the little things as much as the bigger ones. I could give a damn if you made one great block/charge call, if you misapply 15 other rules.

[Edited by Brian Watson on Sep 30th, 2000 at 10:59 PM]

Admin Sun Oct 01, 2000 12:06am

Quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Baldwin
I seldom disagree with Bradley but, I find all the posts interesting and I agree that it all depends on the score and time remaining.
It doesn't depend on the score and time remaining - that has nothing to do with the rule.

Quote:

If the score is close and the game could be determined by the mistake that I or my partner has made, rule book not withstanding, I am going to bring it back.
Jerry, I think that the most telling words in your sentence above are "rule book notwithstanding".

Don't we have to at least agree on a basis from which we will officiate? I am not debating anything with the "rule book notwithstanding" guidelines - because there would be nothing to debate - just have every official do what he or she deems is right and fair at the time.

Quote:

I will then go to the coach of the team who just scored and explain I take the basket off and give the ball to the correct team or I call a delay of game 'T' on the player who made the throw in, rule 10-3-7. Rule 2-3 can also be used in this situation.
I don't think that you have the authority to hand out a technical in this situation. How can the player be responsible for delay when you are the one that handed him the ball? (Yes, I know that it wasn't you - just in the general sense)

Quote:

The rule book does not specially cover this event
Actually it does. Rule 7-5-2 applies, which states that the official should award the ball to the opponent of a team who committed a violation. The case book is explicitly clear (Case 7.5.2) that The error is not correctable.

Quote:

My one over-riding rule is that the officials shall not, if possible, determine the outcome of the game by an official screw up.
I agree with your premise, but not that your goal should override rules that are clearly spelled out by the NF, or whatever organization that governs the event (NCAA, etc.)

Quote:

Example, many of us have corrected the AP arrow when the table forgot to change the direction. If I catch the mistake before a score is made or a change of possesion, I'll bring it back, by the book I can't do that. It is a table mistake of which I am responsible.
The AP arrow pointing the incorrect way is a scoring error (see rule 2-11, Scorers' Duties). Officials have the authority to correct scoring and timing errors. You are not setting aside a rule when you do this.

Quote:

Very few coaches will complain when you do what is right.
HAHAHAHAHA!! Thanks for the laugh Jerry! :)

JRutledge Sun Oct 01, 2000 12:53am

The bottom line to all of this, keep your head in the game and this will never happen to you. You only have to worry about this and other rule applications like this when your mind starts to lose focus and get off track. We can debate all day what the result if we make a mistake, but this should never happen in the first place. Just my opinion.



Quote:

Originally posted by Bradley Batt
Quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Baldwin
I seldom disagree with Bradley but, I find all the posts interesting and I agree that it all depends on the score and time remaining.
It doesn't depend on the score and time remaining - that has nothing to do with the rule.

Quote:

If the score is close and the game could be determined by the mistake that I or my partner has made, rule book not withstanding, I am going to bring it back.
Jerry, I think that the most telling words in your sentence above are "rule book notwithstanding".

Don't we have to at least agree on a basis from which we will officiate? I am not debating anything with the "rule book notwithstanding" guidelines - because there would be nothing to debate - just have every official do what he or she deems is right and fair at the time.

Quote:

I will then go to the coach of the team who just scored and explain I take the basket off and give the ball to the correct team or I call a delay of game 'T' on the player who made the throw in, rule 10-3-7. Rule 2-3 can also be used in this situation.
I don't think that you have the authority to hand out a technical in this situation. How can the player be responsible for delay when you are the one that handed him the ball? (Yes, I know that it wasn't you - just in the general sense)

Quote:

The rule book does not specially cover this event
Actually it does. Rule 7-5-2 applies, which states that the official should award the ball to the opponent of a team who committed a violation. The case book is explicitly clear (Case 7.5.2) that The error is not correctable.

Quote:

My one over-riding rule is that the officials shall not, if possible, determine the outcome of the game by an official screw up.
I agree with your premise, but not that your goal should override rules that are clearly spelled out by the NF, or whatever organization that governs the event (NCAA, etc.)

Quote:

Example, many of us have corrected the AP arrow when the table forgot to change the direction. If I catch the mistake before a score is made or a change of possesion, I'll bring it back, by the book I can't do that. It is a table mistake of which I am responsible.
The AP arrow pointing the incorrect way is a scoring error (see rule 2-11, Scorers' Duties). Officials have the authority to correct scoring and timing errors. You are not setting aside a rule when you do this.

Quote:

Very few coaches will complain when you do what is right.
HAHAHAHAHA!! Thanks for the laugh Jerry! :)


steve gillies Sun Oct 01, 2000 05:39am

I agree with jrutledge. This should never happen in the first place.Especially in a high school level or higher game
"BUT" ........If this did happened,(to my partner of course)
I would get with my partner,explain to him WE kicked the call,and go by the rule book and play on.
I would explain to the coach what happend (because my partners head is in the sand by now)and the coach is
intitled to 20 sec. of my ass....
Now my partner owes me a cold one after the game..

BktBallRef Sun Oct 01, 2000 12:20pm

Quote:

Originally posted by jrutledge
The bottom line to all of this, keep your head in the game and this will never happen to you. You only have to worry about this and other rule applications like this when your mind starts to lose focus and get off track. We can debate all day what the result if we make a mistake, but this should never happen in the first place. Just my opinion.

Quote:

Originally posted by steve gillies
I agree with jrutledge. This should never happen in the first place.Especially in a high school level or higher game


I believe I can safely say that we all agree it should never happen in the first place. But that doesn't mean it doesn't occur. We've all had experiences where we made mistakes and thought, "I screwed that up". To bury our heads in the sand and not discuss what to do when mistakes occur is wrong. I believe that's one of the reasons a forum like this exists. Hopefully, through discussion, we can educate each other as to the proper way to handle such mistakes.

Gary Brendemuehl Mon Oct 02, 2000 09:23am

Quote:

Originally posted by Mark Padgett
Quote:

Originally posted by Gary Brendemuehl
[In regard to Mark Padgett's creative solution, I can only say that I am disappointed in his response. I have read his posts on this and other forums and respect what he has to say. But Mark, I think you kicked this one. The common response of "Are you questioning my judgement or my integrity?" by a referee to a coach's complaint of unfair application of the rules would have to be answered by "Both" in this case.

But then, I am

Just a Coach
So you think the game should be determined by an official's mistake? How would you like it if the "mistake" went against your team? Besides - I am absolutely positive my partner blew his whistle. [/B]


Mistakes happen and we have rules for correcting them (and telling us when they can't be corrected). I try to minimize the likelyhood of a mistake happening by knowing the rules, keeping track of fouls, and so on. If you make a mistake, don't make something up, just because you don't like the rule that applies.

Gary Brendemuehl Mon Oct 02, 2000 10:05am

This situation is not a judgement issue, its a clear cut rules application. For all of you who think the fair thing to do is wipe out the basket and give the ball back to the team that should have had it, tell me what you would do in the following situations:

1. It is discovered during the second dead ball after the clock had properly started that a merited free throw had not been awarded. What is the fair thing to do? Why?

2. In the middle of the third quarter it is discovered that an unmerited free throw was awarded at the end of the 2nd quarter with no time remaining on the clock. Again, what is fair?

3. To begin the game, Jumper A1 tips the ball and then catches it before the ball touches the floor, is touched by a non-jumper, etc. Team B get the ball, but which team gets the possesion arrow?

My point is that the rule book defines what is fair. It defines rules to handle mistakes (1 and 2 above) and to clarify unusual situations (3 above - team B gets the arrow also - Casebook 6.3.1C). These are not advantage/disadvantage situations or block/charge judgement calls. Apply the rule, that's fair.

mick Mon Oct 02, 2000 10:41am

Gary,
What you say is correct. But, two things about Padgett's post.
1. He won't make that mistake, hence nor the correction.
2. I love the way his mind works.
mick

Mark Padgett Mon Oct 02, 2000 10:54am

Thanks Mick.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by mick
Gary,
What you say is correct. But, two things about Padgett's post.
1. He won't make that mistake, hence nor the correction.
2. I love the way his mind works.
mick

Mick - thanks for the kind words, but I admit I do make mistakes. I made one in a game yesterday. I let a kid get away with not giving me the ball when I asked him for it three times while he was complaining about non-calls. Not giving him a T was a mistake :)

As to loving the way my mind works, my response is "what mind". If I had any mind at all, I wouldn't be doing this. Who in their right mind would want to do a job in which you get tons of verbal abuse by people who know nothing about how you should do your job, when you are doing it correctly?

As to an earlier posted comment about what would I do if the tape of the game was reviewed and my "creative solution" revealed - I still say I heard my partner blow his whistle even if it's not on the tape (which it not always is). That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

If I have the opportunity to make sure the better team wins by correcting a mistake I made, I will try to do it.

And yes - our job is to make sure the better team wins! If you don't believe it, start a new thread and I'll be glad to explain it. This is a seminar I give at clinics.

Camron Rust Mon Oct 02, 2000 06:34pm

A nice solution is for the problem to work it self out. If both coaches are good sports then there is a legal way to sort it all out. It's done out of courtesy in other sports, why can't basketball be that way too. For example, I've heard that in soccer, it is not uncommon for a team to deliberately kick the ball out of bounds when the opponents have an injury. The opposing team returns the gesture of good sportsmanship by throwing the ball in to the team that kicked it out.

After team B scores the uncontested goal, stop the game, tell the coaches there is nothing you can do to fix your error but in the name of good sportsmanship B could fix it by allowing A to score uncontested and by throwing the ball in to A. The points would be effectively negated and A would have the ball. Propose it to the coaches and see what happens. It can't get any worse. :)

I suppose that you could call a T on coach B for unsportsmanlike conduct (similar to having the wrong player shoot a FT) by having his team deliberately take a throw-in that was not theirs. The 2 FTs could offset the points and A would get the ball back too. Again, all is evened out except that B's coach has a T which he deserves if he trys to win that way.

[Edited by Camron Rust on Oct 2nd, 2000 at 06:37 PM]

mattbt Mon Oct 02, 2000 10:37pm

NSW State League Grand Final Weekend 2000. Division One Women's Semi Final. Two teams playing are fierce rivals and have been for several years.

Five seconds remaining. Team A, up by two, are fouled on the rebound and have the ball on their own endline. Time out is called by Team B. Play resumes, active official administers the ball to Team B who inbound to the corner and nail the three.

It wasn't realised that a mistake was made until the ball hit the bottom of the net and the Team A coach went crazy. The game officials knew a mistake had been made but followed the rule to the letter and allowed the basket.

Team A inbound but to no avail. Team B wins by one and the officials are chased into the Referees room by plenty of irate fans and players all wanting blood.

If I was out there, the points would have stuck. Feel for the game gets thrown out the window when it is your mistake. Count the three and wear the consequences.

Matt

By the way, it really happened what made it worse was that Team B went on to win the Championship Game by a point also. Lucky win indeed.



Admin Tue Oct 03, 2000 01:46am

Quote:

The bottom line to all of this, keep your head in the game and this will never happen to you. You only have to worry about this and other rule applications like this when your mind starts to lose focus and get off track. We can debate all day what the result if we make a mistake, but this should never happen in the first place. Just my opinion.
I agree that it should never happen, but I have seen stranger things that shouldn't happen actually happen, so I wouldn't rule it out.

It has never happened to me, but I had a partner who almost did this exact thing. What would you do then? That is, what if it was your partner that made the mistake and it happened so quickly that the ball had already been thrown in by the time you recognized it?

Here's hoping that no one has this experience this year... But remember, sometimes bad things do happen to good referees!

DrC. Tue Oct 03, 2000 07:59am

We went over this play last night at a Rules class. Case play 7.5.2B. Intructor is a previous Div I ref and now a Conf Supervisor. He said No correction can be made for the mistake by the official (just like the case book says).

But he did add, that he would give the team that was shortchanged the possession arrow (if they did not already have it).

Todd VandenAkker Tue Oct 03, 2000 08:33am

Quote:

Originally posted by DrC.
But he did add, that he would give the team that was shortchanged the possession arrow (if they did not already have it).
Did he say this "tongue in cheek"? I can respect those who insist no correction of the situation can be made under any circumstances, since that is the procedure outlined in the book. But to make such a definitive statement, only to turn around and suggest a procedure that is no more supported by the Rules than bringing the inbounds throw-in back?? That bespeaks a double-standard and does not promote a "fair" game any more than the first solution. If you're gonna stick with the exact mechanic from the Rules Book to handle this situation, then it seems to me you gotta stick with it all the way.

DrC. Tue Oct 03, 2000 08:38am

Todd, I'll see him again Thurs night and will ask him about that. You are right, unless he can state some case. I even asked him what if they already have the arrow, he said then that too damn [email protected]*(#@ bad !!!

mick Tue Oct 03, 2000 09:24am

Quote:

Originally posted by Todd VandenAkker
Quote:

Originally posted by DrC.
But he did add, that he would give the team that was shortchanged the possession arrow (if they did not already have it).
Did he say this "tongue in cheek"? I can respect those who insist no correction of the situation can be made under any circumstances, since that is the procedure outlined in the book. But to make such a definitive statement, only to turn around and suggest a procedure that is no more supported by the Rules than bringing the inbounds throw-in back?? That bespeaks a double-standard and does not promote a "fair" game any more than the first solution. If you're gonna stick with the exact mechanic from the Rules Book to handle this situation, then it seems to me you gotta stick with it all the way.

Todd,
I think you're correct in that assessment.
mick

DrC. Fri Oct 06, 2000 07:49am

Todd, All

Well I saw him again last night (Ref Conf. Supervisor). I asked him about what he had said about giving the team that was short-changed the possesion arrow, and he said it WAS A RULE. He didn't say what rule, but he emphatically told me IT IS A RULE !!!

mick Fri Oct 06, 2000 07:56am

Quote:

Originally posted by DrC.
Todd, All

Well I saw him again last night (Ref Conf. Supervisor). I asked him about what he had said about giving the team that was short-changed the possesion arrow, and he said it WAS A RULE. He didn't say what rule, but he emphatically told me IT IS A RULE !!!

DrC.,
Well, I guess we can take that to the bank.
mick

Todd VandenAkker Fri Oct 06, 2000 08:31am

Quote:

Originally posted by mick
Well, I guess we can take that to the bank.
mick

I'm not so sure yet. DrC, while it intuitively makes sense to give the "wronged" team the next arrow if it's not already pointing in their direction, I can find no rule in either the Nat'l Fed or NCAA books that supports what your source is telling you, even though he was emphatic that it is a rule. It sounds like he's trying to justify another course of action that "makes sense," but is not actually based in writing. Not that bringing the throw-in back for a re-do is in the book either (it obviously is not), but his step re: the AP arrow just seems to skip the FIRST correcting action ('cuz the book says not to do that) and moves to a slightly less drastic, if you will, alternative that is nonetheless still not an approved mechanic or procedure. But maybe I just missed it in the book, so if someone could find it that would be great.

walter Fri Oct 06, 2000 08:45am

It's not technically a rule but it is addressed in the NCAA rules interpretations and the NFHS case book. NCAA, BI-27, Rule 6, play 3, "Team B is entitled to a throw-in under the alternating possession process. The official, or the scorer, makes an error and the ball is erroneously awarded to Team A for the throw-in. RULING: Once the ball touches or is touched by an inbounds player, this situation cannot be corrected. However, Team B will make the throw-in when the next alternating possession occurs. Team B did not lose its alternating possession throw-in opportunity as a result of the error". In NFHS, casebook play 6.3.1D, "Team B is entitled to a throw-in under the alternating possession procedure. By mistake, Team A is given that throw-in. Can anything be done?" RULING: Not after the ball touches an inbounds player - it is too late to change anything. However, the possession arrow will remain or be pointed towards B's basket so that Team B will be entitled to and have the next alternating possession throw-in. A team should never be given two successive alternating possession throw-ins if the officials are aware of the mistake." The only way anything can be done in these situations is when it involves an alternating possession throw-in. For all other throw-ins, once the throw-in ends, there is nothing that can be done.

Todd VandenAkker Fri Oct 06, 2000 09:04am

I agree about the alternating throw-in, but the situation this post has talked about was NOT an AP situation. That last sentence you quoted, Walt, would seem to support what I was saying--i.e., while 2 successive AP throw-ins to the same team should never be allowed, switching the arrow to the other team in a non-AP situation if it is not already in their favor is NOT an allowable procedure. Would it be the "fair" or "right" thing to do? Possibly. But no more so than a re-do on the throw-in. And neither solution is, technically, supported by the rules. IF I was going to use either one, then I'd opt for the re-do, DEPENDING on the game circumstances (but we don't have to go there again).

[Edited by Todd VandenAkker on Oct 6th, 2000 at 09:10 AM]

BktBallRef Fri Oct 06, 2000 09:23am

You're correct Todd. If an AP situation is handled wrong, then the team that didn't get the AP will get the next one. But, as you said, this thread is not about an AP sitch. It is about a throw-in and, as it has been said over and over again, it cannot be corrected.

rpwall Tue Oct 10, 2000 07:51am

I am getting in this discussion way late, but for what it is worth it seems to me you have to stick with the rule on this one ... no correction can be made.

The unambiguous NFHS Case Book example, the limitation on Correctable Errors and the specified treatment of AP errors make the ruling "easy" (well, "clear" may be a better description).

If the team who erroneously inbounded the ball did not score, we are not off the hook. We made a mistake. The play stands. But the game has been altered by an official's error. Whether or not a direct score resulted is not relevant.

The error (incorrect team inbounding the ball) is really no different than missing a travel that results in points, or missing a goaltending call that takes points away. We can't put ourselves in the position of opening the door on correcting errors outside of the rule, or we'll be negotiating numerous calls per game. The boundaries have been defined and are really there for our benefit.


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