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-   -   To correct or not . . . (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/943-correct-not.html)

Mark Padgett Fri Sep 29, 2000 08:06pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Gary Brendemuehl
[In regard to Mark Padgett's creative solution, I can only say that I am disappointed in his response. I have read his posts on this and other forums and respect what he has to say. But Mark, I think you kicked this one. The common response of "Are you questioning my judgement or my integrity?" by a referee to a coach's complaint of unfair application of the rules would have to be answered by "Both" in this case.

But then, I am

Just a Coach [/B]
So you think the game should be determined by an official's mistake? How would you like it if the "mistake" went against your team? Besides - I am absolutely positive my partner blew his whistle.

mick Fri Sep 29, 2000 08:15pm


So you think the game should be determined by an official's mistake? How would you like it if the "mistake" went against your team? Besides - I am absolutely positive my partner blew his whistle. [/QUOTE]


Mark,
Interesting possibilities....
mick

PAULK1 Fri Sep 29, 2000 08:52pm

And when the coach sends the game tape to the state be sure to stick to your story! Be creative when the need arises
but not on a cut and dry rule that is there to guide you. There was a crew in another sport here that decided they knew what was fair contrary to rule and they ended up suspended by our state for 5 games and fined the amount of 6 games (the 5 suspended and the one they booted). No one in that crew has worked a playoff game since is that fair?

Admin Fri Sep 29, 2000 08:58pm

This discussion has nothing to do with the rules, but rather whether or not we are going to decide to intentionally set aside a rule (which is very clear in this particular case).

I refer you to the NF Case Book:

<blockquote><B>7.5.2B. Play:</B> Team A is awarded a throw-in near the division line. The administering official by mistake, puts the ball at B1's disposel. B1 completes the throw-in and Team B subsequently scores a goal. <B>Ruling:</B> No correction can be made for the mistake by the official.</blockquote>So, what are you going to do? Go against what is clearly in the rule book?? As officials, we don't have the authorization to set aside a rule just because we don't like it, or the outcome of it.

If you screw this up, it is your fault and there is nothing that you can do about it. Setting aside the rule will only make matters worse.

Think about the last time you saw an NCAA Division I game where one official signaled a charge and the other a block. What did they do? They went to a double foul call. Why? Because that is the <B>rule</B>. Setting aside that rule in an attempt to avoid some embarassment will compound the problem.

The heart of the issue is fairness, and if some officials choose to set aside certain rules simply to save face, or for any reason at all, the game is not being played fairly at all.

Todd VandenAkker Sat Sep 30, 2000 11:01am

Quote:

Originally posted by Bradley Batt
If you screw this up, it is your fault and there is nothing that you can do about it. Setting aside the rule will only make matters worse.

Think about the last time you saw an NCAA Division I game where one official signaled a charge and the other a block. What did they do? They went to a double foul call. Why? Because that is the <B>rule</B>. Setting aside that rule in an attempt to avoid some embarassment will compound the problem.

The heart of the issue is fairness, and if some officials choose to set aside certain rules simply to save face, or for any reason at all, the game is not being played fairly at all.

Proceeding in a manner differing from the Rules Book is never a light matter. Yet, if the issue is REALLY about fairness in this specific scenario, then depending on the game circumstances, correcting the error so there is "no harm done" to either team may still be the "right" thing to do. Blindly following the dictum of the Case Book situation mentioned does not necessarily make it the fair thing to do, particularly if in the official's judgment everyone will accept a re-do. In fact, it may be that the only persons considering it UNFAIR to correct the situation are those who cling to the letter of the law--the coaches, players and fans may shake their collective heads (or worse) at the official, but chances are they will accept the correction as the proper procedure. The simultaneous block and charge call in that college game is not an analogous situation, since it is not a blatant error per se that would have an obvious correct solution.

I'm not saying the official SHOULD correct the inbounds mistake and resulting basket, but I am suggesting that he should consider the game circumstances and then use his discretion as to whether to allow the goal or bring it back. Game management itself is not necessarily facilitated by strict adherence to every rule--we allow flexibility in many situations by "passing" on certain calls--but by how the game officials enforce and administer the rules. Correcting this obvious error may, in fact, make the most sense from a game management standpoint if the officials determine it would be the best course of action in that particular game, even if it isn't quite what the rule book says.

Jerry Baldwin Sat Sep 30, 2000 11:29am

I seldom disagree with Bradley but, I find all the posts interesting and I agree that it all depends on the score and time remaining. If the score is close and the game could be determined by the mistake that I or my partner has made, rule book not withstanding, I am going to bring it back. I will then go to the coach of the team who just scored and explain I take the basket off and give the ball to the correct team or I call a delay of game 'T' on the player who made the throw in, rule 10-3-7. Rule 2-3 can also be used in this situation. The rule book does not specially cover this event, but does define correctable errors, which this clearly does not fit. My one over-riding rule is that the officials shall not, if possible, determine the outcome of the game by an official screw up. Example, many of us have corrected the AP arrow when the table forgot to change the direction. If I catch the mistake before a score is made or a change of possesion, I'll bring it back, by the book I can't do that. It is a table mistake of which I am responsible. Very few coaches will complain when you do what is right.

[Edited by Jerry Baldwin on Sep 30th, 2000 at 11:37 AM]

PAULK1 Sat Sep 30, 2000 01:54pm

One of the biggest things we take heat for is consistency
of our calls. There are many who scoff at those who follow the letter of the rule book and other associated pubs and
believe that the those are just mere guidelines to help them call the game they way they think it should be called. They will throw out pharses like game flow or game management, meanwhile all the coach sees is his rebounder getting hacked on the arm not losing control and a no call while his player
does the same thing to a guard out front and a foul. He sees
an arrow mistake one night that is not corrected and then this throw-in situation the next week that is. He sees no handchecking calls the first half when his team was down 15
but 2 in the last 2 minutes after his team clawed it way back to within 3. I wonder if this is why they set it out so clearly in the case book so that it might be called one way every game and not left up to the official to make his own decision....And you wonder why they perceive us to be partial.

BktBallRef Sat Sep 30, 2000 04:54pm

It would seem to me that the case book play below is very clear.

7.5.2B. Play: Team A is awarded a throw-in near the division line. The administering official by mistake, puts the ball at B1's disposel. B1 completes the throw-in and Team B subsequently scores a goal. Ruling: No correction can be made for the mistake by the official.

When the play described is identical to the case book play, how can you guys say that you should use your discretion? If the NF wanted this to be a correctable error situation, they would have included it in rule 2-10. What right do you have to make up your own rules? When officials use terms like "game management" to make a case for what is contrary to the rules of the game, you make the game a farce.

Don't compound one mistake by making a second mistake.


Brian Watson Sat Sep 30, 2000 10:57pm

I think there are many points that are coming out, and I think, for the most part, most are right.

I think how this situation is handled, depends a lot on the state and level where it takes place. The state is responsible for all interpretations of the rules, case book included. And middle school is for learning. For the kids, coaches, and refs. But at the higher levels you need to really consider your actions.

Personally (in my state), I would not want to put myself on the line, by lying, when I know the game tape will not back me up. I know the commish's will be unhappy I kicked the call, but if I apply the proper rule, they will back me to the end. I can't even imagine how many tiny pieces my license would be ripped in, by not applying the proper rule and lying on top of it.

Also, Paul brings up one of my biggest pet peeves: "This is the first time all year you called that".

I get his more in Track and Volleyball, but it happens all the time. Refs "looking" the other way and not enforcing what <u>they</u> consider minor rules (proper uni's, getting rosters in etc.), but they do matter, especially in the state tourneys. Why will you call it when the state commish is looking over your shoulder, but not when it is a mid-season game. I hate to be a tool, but we need to apply the rules on the little things as much as the bigger ones. I could give a damn if you made one great block/charge call, if you misapply 15 other rules.

[Edited by Brian Watson on Sep 30th, 2000 at 10:59 PM]

Admin Sun Oct 01, 2000 12:06am

Quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Baldwin
I seldom disagree with Bradley but, I find all the posts interesting and I agree that it all depends on the score and time remaining.
It doesn't depend on the score and time remaining - that has nothing to do with the rule.

Quote:

If the score is close and the game could be determined by the mistake that I or my partner has made, rule book not withstanding, I am going to bring it back.
Jerry, I think that the most telling words in your sentence above are "rule book notwithstanding".

Don't we have to at least agree on a basis from which we will officiate? I am not debating anything with the "rule book notwithstanding" guidelines - because there would be nothing to debate - just have every official do what he or she deems is right and fair at the time.

Quote:

I will then go to the coach of the team who just scored and explain I take the basket off and give the ball to the correct team or I call a delay of game 'T' on the player who made the throw in, rule 10-3-7. Rule 2-3 can also be used in this situation.
I don't think that you have the authority to hand out a technical in this situation. How can the player be responsible for delay when you are the one that handed him the ball? (Yes, I know that it wasn't you - just in the general sense)

Quote:

The rule book does not specially cover this event
Actually it does. Rule 7-5-2 applies, which states that the official should award the ball to the opponent of a team who committed a violation. The case book is explicitly clear (Case 7.5.2) that The error is not correctable.

Quote:

My one over-riding rule is that the officials shall not, if possible, determine the outcome of the game by an official screw up.
I agree with your premise, but not that your goal should override rules that are clearly spelled out by the NF, or whatever organization that governs the event (NCAA, etc.)

Quote:

Example, many of us have corrected the AP arrow when the table forgot to change the direction. If I catch the mistake before a score is made or a change of possesion, I'll bring it back, by the book I can't do that. It is a table mistake of which I am responsible.
The AP arrow pointing the incorrect way is a scoring error (see rule 2-11, Scorers' Duties). Officials have the authority to correct scoring and timing errors. You are not setting aside a rule when you do this.

Quote:

Very few coaches will complain when you do what is right.
HAHAHAHAHA!! Thanks for the laugh Jerry! :)

JRutledge Sun Oct 01, 2000 12:53am

The bottom line to all of this, keep your head in the game and this will never happen to you. You only have to worry about this and other rule applications like this when your mind starts to lose focus and get off track. We can debate all day what the result if we make a mistake, but this should never happen in the first place. Just my opinion.



Quote:

Originally posted by Bradley Batt
Quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Baldwin
I seldom disagree with Bradley but, I find all the posts interesting and I agree that it all depends on the score and time remaining.
It doesn't depend on the score and time remaining - that has nothing to do with the rule.

Quote:

If the score is close and the game could be determined by the mistake that I or my partner has made, rule book not withstanding, I am going to bring it back.
Jerry, I think that the most telling words in your sentence above are "rule book notwithstanding".

Don't we have to at least agree on a basis from which we will officiate? I am not debating anything with the "rule book notwithstanding" guidelines - because there would be nothing to debate - just have every official do what he or she deems is right and fair at the time.

Quote:

I will then go to the coach of the team who just scored and explain I take the basket off and give the ball to the correct team or I call a delay of game 'T' on the player who made the throw in, rule 10-3-7. Rule 2-3 can also be used in this situation.
I don't think that you have the authority to hand out a technical in this situation. How can the player be responsible for delay when you are the one that handed him the ball? (Yes, I know that it wasn't you - just in the general sense)

Quote:

The rule book does not specially cover this event
Actually it does. Rule 7-5-2 applies, which states that the official should award the ball to the opponent of a team who committed a violation. The case book is explicitly clear (Case 7.5.2) that The error is not correctable.

Quote:

My one over-riding rule is that the officials shall not, if possible, determine the outcome of the game by an official screw up.
I agree with your premise, but not that your goal should override rules that are clearly spelled out by the NF, or whatever organization that governs the event (NCAA, etc.)

Quote:

Example, many of us have corrected the AP arrow when the table forgot to change the direction. If I catch the mistake before a score is made or a change of possesion, I'll bring it back, by the book I can't do that. It is a table mistake of which I am responsible.
The AP arrow pointing the incorrect way is a scoring error (see rule 2-11, Scorers' Duties). Officials have the authority to correct scoring and timing errors. You are not setting aside a rule when you do this.

Quote:

Very few coaches will complain when you do what is right.
HAHAHAHAHA!! Thanks for the laugh Jerry! :)


steve gillies Sun Oct 01, 2000 05:39am

I agree with jrutledge. This should never happen in the first place.Especially in a high school level or higher game
"BUT" ........If this did happened,(to my partner of course)
I would get with my partner,explain to him WE kicked the call,and go by the rule book and play on.
I would explain to the coach what happend (because my partners head is in the sand by now)and the coach is
intitled to 20 sec. of my ass....
Now my partner owes me a cold one after the game..

BktBallRef Sun Oct 01, 2000 12:20pm

Quote:

Originally posted by jrutledge
The bottom line to all of this, keep your head in the game and this will never happen to you. You only have to worry about this and other rule applications like this when your mind starts to lose focus and get off track. We can debate all day what the result if we make a mistake, but this should never happen in the first place. Just my opinion.

Quote:

Originally posted by steve gillies
I agree with jrutledge. This should never happen in the first place.Especially in a high school level or higher game


I believe I can safely say that we all agree it should never happen in the first place. But that doesn't mean it doesn't occur. We've all had experiences where we made mistakes and thought, "I screwed that up". To bury our heads in the sand and not discuss what to do when mistakes occur is wrong. I believe that's one of the reasons a forum like this exists. Hopefully, through discussion, we can educate each other as to the proper way to handle such mistakes.

Gary Brendemuehl Mon Oct 02, 2000 09:23am

Quote:

Originally posted by Mark Padgett
Quote:

Originally posted by Gary Brendemuehl
[In regard to Mark Padgett's creative solution, I can only say that I am disappointed in his response. I have read his posts on this and other forums and respect what he has to say. But Mark, I think you kicked this one. The common response of "Are you questioning my judgement or my integrity?" by a referee to a coach's complaint of unfair application of the rules would have to be answered by "Both" in this case.

But then, I am

Just a Coach
So you think the game should be determined by an official's mistake? How would you like it if the "mistake" went against your team? Besides - I am absolutely positive my partner blew his whistle. [/B]


Mistakes happen and we have rules for correcting them (and telling us when they can't be corrected). I try to minimize the likelyhood of a mistake happening by knowing the rules, keeping track of fouls, and so on. If you make a mistake, don't make something up, just because you don't like the rule that applies.

Gary Brendemuehl Mon Oct 02, 2000 10:05am

This situation is not a judgement issue, its a clear cut rules application. For all of you who think the fair thing to do is wipe out the basket and give the ball back to the team that should have had it, tell me what you would do in the following situations:

1. It is discovered during the second dead ball after the clock had properly started that a merited free throw had not been awarded. What is the fair thing to do? Why?

2. In the middle of the third quarter it is discovered that an unmerited free throw was awarded at the end of the 2nd quarter with no time remaining on the clock. Again, what is fair?

3. To begin the game, Jumper A1 tips the ball and then catches it before the ball touches the floor, is touched by a non-jumper, etc. Team B get the ball, but which team gets the possesion arrow?

My point is that the rule book defines what is fair. It defines rules to handle mistakes (1 and 2 above) and to clarify unusual situations (3 above - team B gets the arrow also - Casebook 6.3.1C). These are not advantage/disadvantage situations or block/charge judgement calls. Apply the rule, that's fair.


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