Backcourt Question

fletch_irwin_m · #1 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 21, 2003, 10:18am

Had this one over the weekend:
Team A advancing the ball. Team B pressing. A1 makes a pass that is deflected and is bouncing on the ground and we have a minor little scrum. The ball bounces out of the scrum and bounces over the division line and heads out of bounds. A2 dives, taps the ball to save it from going out and the ball lands in in the back court with A3 being the first one to touch it and then advance into the front call. At no time did the ball touch the front court.
Our ruling: No Call. Possession not established. Were we right?

Jurassic Referee · #2 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 21, 2003, 10:45am

Legal play.Ball never attained front court status. Good no-call.

Hawks Coach · #3 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 21, 2003, 11:07am

fletch
I am not clear what really happened. Team A does have possession, that's how they made a pass. So we do have Team A in control, until B establishes control (even if they lose physical control of ball).

Now the tough part. The ball went over the line of the front court, but did not touch front court. A2, position not yet established, saves ball back toward back court. The only critical question is "Did A2 have front court status?"

If A2 was in back court, never stepped into the front court, and dove over half court line and boundary line to make save, no call. So you made the right no-call for the wrong reason, if A2 was backcourt.

If A2 established front court position while making the save (or simply was in the front court the whole time), then you have all the elements of a backcourt violation, because A2 being front court and touching the ball puts the ball in a front court position. This second scenario results in 1) A in control, 2) ball in front court due to A2's touch, A last to touch before ball goes back court and first to touch after it goes backcourt.

Dan_ref · #4 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 21, 2003, 11:13am

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Legal play.Ball never attained front court status. Good no-call.

I'm not sure this is clear - he didn't say where the ball was when B applied pressure and even if the ball was still in the BC he doesn't say from where A2 jumped when he saved it from going OOB.

If the answer to either of these is "the frontcourt" then I have a BC violation, the way I see this play.

Edit: just read the coach's post, he beat me to it.

fletch_irwin_m · #5 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 21, 2003, 01:04pm

Here is some more info that will muddy the waters

I was back court Lead/New Trail. Play happens opposite court in front of C. I see the deflected pass and the players around the ball. From my vantage point I could not tell if the player came from front or back court, I just know that she was close to it and heading out of bounds.
As I look at my notes from the game, I see that the C stated something to the effect that "at no time were all three points of TEAM A over the line, thus no front court position could be established." He did not say anything about the player being in front or back when the ball was touched.

Hawks Coach · #6 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 21, 2003, 01:33pm

Your mud just gives me the opportunity to toss a little more mud into the water and stir it up

The three points rule for establishing FC status clearly does not apply (and I think you already knew that). Ball is not being dribbled, and 3 points rule applies to player dribling ball. If a loose ball or passed ball touches FC on one bounce, it is FC. If a player is going from BC to FC, steps into FC with lead foot and lifts back foot, the player is FC. So A2 having one foot on court and that foot is FC would have been enough to establish A2 as FC. A@ subsequently touching ball without ever touching BC again would make the ball FC.

If you couldn't see it and your partner didn't know the rule, oh well. You aren't going to get into this kind of discussion during the game. And since we will never know where A2 was, it will remain a mystery as to whether you got lucky and got the call right. Regardless, partner's reasoning on 3 points being required for FC status was wrong, and your reasoning on team control was also wrong.

BktBallRef · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 21, 2003, 01:37pm

Quote:

Originally posted by fletch_irwin_m
As I look at my notes from the game, I see that the C stated something to the effect that "at no time were all three points of TEAM A over the line, thus no front court position could be established."

Three points doesn't have anything to do with it. The key is where was A2 when she tapped the ball. If she had FC status, then this is a BC violation.

fletch_irwin_m · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 21, 2003, 03:14pm

Ok, so I hate being wrong!!
I would wager, based on peripheral vision, that Player A was in BC, jumped to save the ball in FC as it was heading OB and tipped it into BC. I can't swear to it, but I don't need to!
Since I am a believer in "Partnering" I would then say to the coach or whoever that the "3 Points Rule" DOES apply as Player A's feet, while airborne, were still in the BC. By being able to tap the ball IB from the FC establishes control with feet in BC.
My partner did a great job explaining the situation to both coaches and sold it well. I am glad I was still on the opposite side of the floor!

Hawks Coach · #9 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 21, 2003, 03:31pm

I would say as a good partner that you avoid commenting on the call and refer questions to your partner. If you tell me that the three points rule applies when I clearly know it does not, I now think that the both of you are idiots, when I formerly felt that way only about your partner who said 3 points rule applies.

fletch_irwin_m · #10 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 21, 2003, 03:42pm

HC
1. You are a rare exception of a coach knowing rules!
2. I am used to people thinking I am an idiot. Ask any fan in the stands!
3. I thought all coaches thought all refree''s were idiot's!

You are right, I did not comment on the call and we discussed it post game. United we stand, divided we fall!

Camron Rust · #11 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 21, 2003, 05:42pm

Quote:

Originally posted by fletch_irwin_m
Ok, so I hate being wrong!!
I would wager, based on peripheral vision, that Player A was in BC, jumped to save the ball in FC as it was heading OB and tipped it into BC. I can't swear to it, but I don't need to!
Since I am a believer in "Partnering" I would then say to the coach or whoever that the "3 Points Rule" DOES apply as Player A's feet, while airborne, were still in the BC. By being able to tap the ball IB from the FC establishes control with feet in BC.
My partner did a great job explaining the situation to both coaches and sold it well. I am glad I was still on the opposite side of the floor!

Your conclusion may be right and you may not...I'm not sure I can tell what you are saying...

However, the "3 points rule" does NOT apply in any form unless the ball is being dribbled. A deflected ball is not being dribbled.

You stated earlier that the ball never touched the floor in the FC and that it was recovered in the BC. However you just said that the player "jumped to save the ball in the FC". I suspect, to reconcile these, you mean that the player jumped over the FC was actually still in the BC by having jumped from the BC.

If the ball had touched in the FC before the save...it would be in the FC and a violation when recovered in the BC.

If the player had jumped from the FC (no matter where the ball was) to make the save the ball would have FC status the moment it was touched....it would be a violation to recover it in the BC.

I will never mangle the rules just to support my partner. I will not show him up either. I'll save it for after or perhaps, in a few cases, have a private discussion on the spot.

In this case, I'd leave it alone.

I had a partner last season that made a call that may not have been right...I thought not but stayed completely out of it.

The defender was inside the "NBA semi-circle" on a 1-on-1 turnover/fast break. He called a block.

The coach questioned it. He gave an explanation to the coach from 1/2 way across the floor. The only problem was that his explanation was completely wrong rules-wise (He had said that he was under the basket) and the coach called him on it. He then altered the explanation a bit to say that the defender flopped and was still wrong since that still doesn't warrant a block. On the third try, he gave a plausible explanation that the defender moved under the shooter...albeit probalby just to get out of it and not even close to what I saw happen. Even though it was on a break, I somehow managed to get in the frontcourt as the new trail and had a pretty clear look at the whole thing. One I heard his whistle, I fully expected a charge.

Aside from this single incident, he's a great official that I'd work with again.

What I learned from it is
(1) be careful in explaining calls by oversimplifications....some coaches do know the actual rules.
(2) He lost a lot of credibility in that game by cycling through 2 weak reasons before he got to one that had some bearing on the rules.

(3) Even though I think he blew it, I stayed out of it and it passed pretty quickly and we moved on. If I'd gotten into it, how messy could it have become??