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-   -   Over and back??? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/94036-over-back.html)

Raymond Thu Feb 14, 2013 02:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bauzer714 (Post 879454)
If he/she intentionally pushed the ball to the back court, it is control. The ball went where the player intended.

Over and Back
I'm betting you don't have a rule book.

bauzer714 Sat Feb 16, 2013 01:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockyroad (Post 879460)
That's a nice, generic use of the word "control", but it is not the basketball definition of "control".

If you're going to use your definition of control, then we would have to say the initial tap by the jumper established team control.
The rule book does say that no player control exists during a jump ball. The player may not have 'control' but the team does. A team has the control during a pass. I would argue a 'controlled tip' is absolutely a pass. Ball location in 4.4.2 puts the 'location' of the ball in the FC, then control tipped (passed) to a teammate in the BC. Thus, O&B.

Adam Sat Feb 16, 2013 02:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bauzer714 (Post 879829)
The rule book does say that no player control exists during a jump ball. The player may not have 'control' but the team does. A team has the control during a pass. I would argue a 'controlled tip' is absolutely a pass. Ball location in 4.4.2 puts the 'location' of the ball in the FC, then control tipped (passed) to a teammate in the BC. Thus, O&B.
It also says no "team control" exists during the jump ball. How does team control get established? When a player establishes player control or when the ball is placed at his disposal for a FT or TI. None of those events has occurred yet.

TC has not been established.

deecee Sat Feb 16, 2013 02:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bauzer714 (Post 879454)
If he/she intentionally pushed the ball to the back court, it is control. The ball went where the player intended.

Over and Back
The only time I would try and gather intent was if I was debating between intentional flagrant foul and a simple intentional foul.

deecee Sat Feb 16, 2013 02:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bauzer714 (Post 879829)
The rule book does say that no player control exists during a jump ball. The player may not have 'control' but the team does. A team has the control during a pass. I would argue a 'controlled tip' is absolutely a pass. Ball location in 4.4.2 puts the 'location' of the ball in the FC, then control tipped (passed) to a teammate in the BC. Thus, O&B.
You cannot establish team control without having player control. Ball gets tipped on the jump ball there is no player or team control until a player first gets control.


A tip and a pass are two different things. Simply batting a ball does not constitute control. If the ball comes to rest (palming) and the player throws the ball like most would a baseball then that's different. That is not a bat or a tip.

rockyroad Sat Feb 16, 2013 02:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bauzer714 (Post 879829)
The rule book does say that no player control exists during a jump ball. The player may not have 'control' but the team does. A team has the control during a pass. I would argue a 'controlled tip' is absolutely a pass. Ball location in 4.4.2 puts the 'location' of the ball in the FC, then control tipped (passed) to a teammate in the BC. Thus, O&B.
If there is no control to start with, how in the world can there suddenly be team control without there ever being any player control?? And to establish player control, there are very definite requirements...and tipping the ball does not meet those requirements.

BillyMac Sat Feb 16, 2013 02:31pm
There's No Judge In Judgment ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bauzer714 (Post 879829)
I would argue a 'controlled tip' is absolutely a pass.
During the controlled tip would you grant a request for a timeout? Whether player control exists during a controlled tip, or not, is a judgment call, and that's why we get paid the big bucks, at least here in the Constitution State.

Nevadaref Sat Feb 16, 2013 02:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee (Post 879831)
The only time I would try and gather intent was if I was debating between intentional flagrant foul and a simple intentional foul.
Sigh, which does not exist, but don't let that stop you from giving advice.

Nevadaref Sat Feb 16, 2013 02:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bauzer714 (Post 879829)
The rule book does say that no player control exists during a jump ball. The player may not have 'control' but the team does. A team has the control during a pass. I would argue a 'controlled tip' is absolutely a pass. Ball location in 4.4.2 puts the 'location' of the ball in the FC, then control tipped (passed) to a teammate in the BC. Thus, O&B.
You could argue that all you want and you would still be incorrect.
No backcourt violation is possible until a player, who is inbounds, either holds or dribbles the ball. There is nothing else to this.

bauzer714 Sat Feb 16, 2013 03:52pm
Good points were definitely made here. I think you guys are right. I do stand corrected, this is not o&b.

deecee Sat Feb 16, 2013 05:09pm
Typed to fast - flagrant v. intentional. But that won't stop one member from being a nitpicking twit.

rockyroad Sat Feb 16, 2013 06:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee (Post 879850)
Typed to fast - flagrant v. intentional. But that won't stop one member from being a nitpicking twit.
Interestingly enough, those nitpicking twits are usually the ones that get things handled properly when the sh!t hits the fan in a game.


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