Over and back???
 

On game start jump ball....ball is tipped to frontcourt to player where he control tips it to backcourt to teammate..is this over and back???? I say yes.

You posted this using your smart phone, didn't you?

There's no such thing as a "control tip." If he didn't hold it, he didn't have control, thus a legal play.

What needs to happen for there to be a backcourt violation? Also, look at rule 4-12.

Rule 4-12

ART. 6

Neither team control nor player control exists during a dead ball, a jump ball or when the ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal

But the "jump ball" ended when it was touched by a non-jumper. 6-3-8.

True ... but I wasn't trying to suggest that as the only criteria. Just an extra little caveat.

True, but when does control get established?

I wouldn't have a backcourt violation.

I wasn't trying to imply there'd be a backcourt, I say tip is not enough for control.

I was simply pointing out the intent behind PG's reference.

If he/she intentionally pushed the ball to the back court, it is control. The ball went where the player intended.

Over and Back

Intent has nothing to do with it...players intentionally bat rebounds into the backcourt all the time and no one would imagine calling a backcourt violation there if a teammate were to recover the ball (and rightfully so).

The only question is as to whether there is player control or not is whether the player was dribbling (no pertinent in this play) or holding the ball.

That's a nice, generic use of the word "control", but it is not the basketball definition of "control".

If you're going to use your definition of control, then we would have to say the initial tap by the jumper established team control.

"Control Tip" LOL.... like "Slap bunt" in softball. Two words, mutually exclusive, jammed together to describe something near the border of both.

A slap is not a bunt - it is a type of hit. A bunt cannot be a slap.

A tip is not a type of control - it is the absence of control. Control means possession, and cannot be a tip.

Tips, no. Catches and passes, yes.

I'm betting you don't have a rule book.

The rule book does say that no player control exists during a jump ball. The player may not have 'control' but the team does. A team has the control during a pass. I would argue a 'controlled tip' is absolutely a pass. Ball location in 4.4.2 puts the 'location' of the ball in the FC, then control tipped (passed) to a teammate in the BC. Thus, O&B.

It also says no "team control" exists during the jump ball. How does team control get established? When a player establishes player control or when the ball is placed at his disposal for a FT or TI. None of those events has occurred yet.

TC has not been established.

The only time I would try and gather intent was if I was debating between intentional flagrant foul and a simple intentional foul.

You cannot establish team control without having player control. Ball gets tipped on the jump ball there is no player or team control until a player first gets control.


A tip and a pass are two different things. Simply batting a ball does not constitute control. If the ball comes to rest (palming) and the player throws the ball like most would a baseball then that's different. That is not a bat or a tip.

If there is no control to start with, how in the world can there suddenly be team control without there ever being any player control?? And to establish player control, there are very definite requirements...and tipping the ball does not meet those requirements.

There's No Judge In Judgment ...
 

During the controlled tip would you grant a request for a timeout? Whether player control exists during a controlled tip, or not, is a judgment call, and that's why we get paid the big bucks, at least here in the Constitution State.

Sigh, which does not exist, but don't let that stop you from giving advice.

You could argue that all you want and you would still be incorrect.
No backcourt violation is possible until a player, who is inbounds, either holds or dribbles the ball. There is nothing else to this.

Good points were definitely made here. I think you guys are right. I do stand corrected, this is not o&b.

Typed to fast - flagrant v. intentional. But that won't stop one member from being a nitpicking twit.

Interestingly enough, those nitpicking twits are usually the ones that get things handled properly when the sh!t hits the fan in a game.