Buzzer beater...........oops

[just another ref]

Things got a bit hectic at the end tonight. BV, close game all night. V leads by 3 under a minute. H on offense, shot, miss, rebound, another miss, ball tapped out and V33 winds up with a breakaway. H15 sprinted after and got there just in time to leap and grab a shoulder and take V33 to the floor. I made the X. H head coach was up and screaming, but I quickly realized he was screaming at H15: "HELP HIM UP!" Good. Nobody was unhappy with this call. V33 can ice it. 16 seconds left. He clanks both. Ball on the endline. V inbounds. I expect an immediate foul, but there is none. They swing it all around the perimeter, then V35 flashes open in the paint. Ball goes to him, he turns to lay it up and misses, rebounds, misses again. (pass it back out, son) H finally secures the rebound. I expect a timeout, there is none. I'm new lead so now I bust it to get ahead of the play. H23 puts it on the floor and starts hard upcourt. I glance at the clock and see 2 seconds, thinking he's not gonna get it off. I heard the words time out, I think, but not from anybody I was dealing with at the time. I then hear a whistle, glance back at my partner who is indicating TO for H, then H23 releases a shot 12-15 feet in the backcourt, which banks in as the buzzer sounds. HC is screaming again, I heard the words timeout. I thought he was saying that he requested timeout and wanted to be sure he was going to have time put back. No, he was saying he didn't ask for timeout at all. Partner said he had granted the timeout to a player. Said multiple players were saying timeout and one had actually come toward him making the T signal. Naturally all the kids denied making the request. Coach asked what number. Partner didn't know. Oops.
Coach suggested it couldn't be a timeout if we didn't know what number. I politely told him that was not the case, that the whistle undeniably caused the ball to be dead. Apparently he had no argument that the whistle came before the release. He suggested that since there was no timeout request that it was an inadvertant whistle. My splainer was about gone for the evening by now so I didn't bother to tell him that even if there was no request and it was an inadvertant whistle, it still made the ball dead. Partner said he had the request at 2 seconds (clock had no tenths) so we put the time back on the clock and H inbounded at the 28' line in the backcourt. Inbounds pass was deflected and trickled out of bounds at the buzzer. Coach said there was no request, he had video, and we would be "reported."
I said okay.

[JugglingReferee]

If the whistle went, the play is dead, and H gets the ensuing throw-in. But one should grab the number when granting a timeout requested by a player. The more ammo you have in these cases, the easier it is in case someone asks.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

But one should grab the number when granting a timeout requested by a player. The more ammo you have in these cases, the easier it is in case someone asks.

I think we all agree that this is the case. I have also been guilty of this lack of knowledge at times. While this is certainly no excuse, players make timeout request so seldom these days, it is easy to get out of this habit.

[just another ref]

This situation brought to mind another issue, when is a timeout actually granted? This situation was opposite of the normal request. The team making the request wants it NOW if not sooner, with the common example being the player who makes the request while airborne before landing out of bounds. Though not specifically stated by rule, normally the timeout is granted even if the whistle does not actually sound until after the player has landed. But look at the situation tonight. A1 pushing the ball up the court. A2 says timeout. Official says "What, you want timeout?" A2 nods. Official blows the whistle. Meanwhile, just as the official was asking for verification of the request, A1 launched a shot, which was in flight when the whistle sounded.

5-8-3 states that timeout occurs when an official grants and signals the request of a player or coach.

Under 6-7 the only thing that causes the ball to be dead related to a timeout which is mentioned is the whistle, not the request, nor the recognition/granting thereof. While I think most of us handle this the same way, (it took a while for me to sorta swallow this concept in a thread several years ago) I would like to see an editorial revision and perhaps a case play with regard to this issue.

As sticky as our situation was tonight, I imagine it being a lot worse had the whistle not sounded until after the release.

[Adam]

1. I'm assuming he threatened to report you during the TO he didn't want. If so, why did you not T him?

2. If it happened after the game was over, why were you on the court?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Adam

1. I'm assuming he threatened to report you during the TO he didn't want. If so, why did you not T him?

Never occurred to me at the time, although it did later. He was getting a bit agitated as he asked his series of questions. "What if.....?" "Why can't we......?"

So I told him to take it easy and let's not make this any worse. He was actually quite calm then. "It's already worse. Y'all are getting reported."
I almost bit at this point, but I didn't. (Oh, yeah? What's the report gonna say?) He calmly stated a fact about his intentions regarding the situation. I still don't see a T here.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I think we all agree that this is the case. I have also been guilty of this lack of knowledge at times. While this is certainly no excuse, players make timeout request so seldom these days, it is easy to get out of this habit.

The is a bad habit to get complacent about for exactly the events that occurred in your game.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

The is a bad habit to get complacent about for exactly the events that occurred in your game.

I agree it would have been nice to have this information, but I really don't think it would have changed anything. All the players had already denied making the request. Earlier in the game, I granted V15 a timeout when he had trouble with a throwin against pressure. Not sure I have granted another to a player all season. Also, I don't know about this, but I'm thinking that this piece of information is something that at least some scorers don't record.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I agree it would have been nice to have this information, but I really don't think it would have changed anything. All the players had already denied making the request. Earlier in the game, I granted V15 a timeout when he had trouble with a throwin against pressure. Not sure I have granted another to a player all season. Also, I don't know about this, but I'm thinking that this piece of information is something that at least some scorers don't record.

They should be recording the player # or HC in each time-out block.

I don't think of it as a nicety, I think of it as a pertinent piece of information that officials are responsible to know.

[egj13]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

But one should grab the number when granting a timeout requested by a player.

I just went over the 100 game mark for the season and did about as many last year and I have not had a single player requested time out since I have been in Montana. Crazy right?

I never thought to much of it until I was doing a MS travel tournamet and a coach from out of town asked if we were going to allow players to call TOs in this tournament. I was like, umm I know of no rule otherwise. Must be a local thing here but I haven't seen a player requested TO in 2 years in Montana.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Coach said there was no request, he had video, and we would be "reported."
I said okay.

Just talked to the assignor. There has been no report, so I doubt there will be. I can't help but wonder if the video verified the request, they simply cooled off, or they thought a report would be pointless regardless. I will remember to ask about this next year. Time heals all wounds.

[Tio]

Coaches are biased... and it is unfair when they can influence the ratings system because they lose a game even though the crew called a good game. If he wants to scratch you, fine... if you are getting your plays right, there are plenty of other coaches who want you to work their games. Unfortunately, there are some coaches who want officials they can influence or manipulate to get calls.... Luckily, most just want guys who work hard, will communicate with them and get the plays right.

I would not tech a coach based on the facts presented. If he did not ask for a timeout... then immediately restart the game from the POI. Don't force him to take one he (or a player did not ask for).

I think you did what you could... hopefully, your partner will learn from this and will be better prepared next time he gets in a heated end of game situation.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Tio

Coaches are biased... and it is unfair when they can influence the ratings system because they lose a game even though the crew called a good game. If he wants to scratch you, fine... if you are getting your plays right, there are plenty of other coaches who want you to work their games. Unfortunately, there are some coaches who want officials they can influence or manipulate to get calls.... Luckily, most just want guys who work hard, will communicate with them and get the plays right.

We actually have no rating system. This was the least of my worries.

I would not tech a coach based on the facts presented. If he did not ask for a timeout... then immediately restart the game from the POI. Don't force him to take one he (or a player did not ask for).

I think you did what you could... hopefully, your partner will learn from this and will be better prepared next time he gets in a heated end of game situation.

It wasn't that he didn't want the timeout. I'm still not certain that he didn't request one himself, but nobody saw him. What he didn't want was to admit that the ball was dead and the 60' game-tying shot didn't count. I told my young partner not to lose any sleep over it.

[Tio]

Originally Posted by just another ref

We actually have no rating system. This was the least of my worries.



It wasn't that he didn't want the timeout. I'm still not certain that he didn't request one himself, but nobody saw him. What he didn't want was to admit that the ball was dead and the 60' game-tying shot didn't count. I told my young partner not to lose any sleep over it.

If that is the case then he was probably being a jerk for the sake of causing problems. I would just ignore him then.

[just another ref]

It's ironic. I pick out things that have been problematic and mention them in pregame. This is one of them I use this year.

Coaches, I encourage you to tell your players to relay your timeout requests to us. I don't think some of the players even know that they can ask for timeout. When you want one the most, this will be the time when we are least likely to see you, especially with a 2 man crew.

Who knows? Maybe this coach actually mentioned this to his players.

Like I said.......oops.