Trip on a rebound

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Another situation talked completely up again because of this site.

Well I worked an NCAA game today, had a player fall to the floor and then after a loose ball, the ball handler falls over a player "laying" on the floor and my partner comes in and makes a great call and calls the foul on the prone player. Funny, he reads this site and we talked about this conversation.

You guys just had to talk it up didn't you.

Peace

The very first D3 game I ever worked A1 comes downs with a rebound, takes a step back and stumbles over prone B1. I called a travel. Coach A was unhappy. After the game my crew chief talked to me about the play and I looked up rule. One rule I'll never get wrong in either FED or college games ever again.

[ColeTops25]

I've learned many things reading posts on this forum. This thread caught my attention because I have been trained to believe that a player laying on the floor does not have LGP. My Interpreter states this is accurate. However, as my wife will attest, I have been wrong on plenty of occasions, and I'm sure that an Interpreter has been wrong before. That said, this dialogue has bothered me because I was starting to believe that I have been making the incorrect ruling with regards to this matter. As such, I decided to enlist the help of IAABO Coordinator of Rules Interpreters, Peter Webb. Below is his response to my question regarding a player laying on the floor.

"As is cited within you description:

A-1 does not have legal guarding position. The ruling is a blocking foul on A-1.

A-1 is fine laying on the floor, however, he/she is not in a legal position as per rule 4.23, when a player extends him/herself's body or body part beyond the normal stance/position and then contact occurs he/she is not in legal position.....ruling foul."

I feel better that what I have been ruling is corroborated. YMMV...hope this helps.

[rockyroad]

Sounds like you need to keep calling it the way you have been as long as you continue to operate under the IAABO rule set (or NCAA). If you start working under NFHS rules then you will need to change your mindset.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by ColeTops25

I've learned many things reading posts on this forum. This thread caught my attention because I have been trained to believe that a player laying on the floor does not have LGP. My Interpreter states this is accurate. However, as my wife will attest, I have been wrong on plenty of occasions, and I'm sure that an Interpreter has been wrong before. That said, this dialogue has bothered me because I was starting to believe that I have been making the incorrect ruling with regards to this matter. As such, I decided to enlist the help of IAABO Coordinator of Rules Interpreters, Peter Webb. Below is his response to my question regarding a player laying on the floor.

"As is cited within you description:

A-1 does not have legal guarding position. The ruling is a blocking foul on A-1.

A-1 is fine laying on the floor, however, he/she is not in a legal position as per rule 4.23, when a player extends him/herself's body or body part beyond the normal stance/position and then contact occurs he/she is not in legal position.....ruling foul."

I feel better that what I have been ruling is corroborated. YMMV...hope this helps.

Send him the caseplay that BktBallRef posted above and see what his reponse is then.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Send him the caseplay that BktBallRef posted above and see what his reponse is then.

This.

[PG_Ref]

Originally Posted by ColeTops25

I've learned many things reading posts on this forum. This thread caught my attention because I have been trained to believe that a player laying on the floor does not have LGP. My Interpreter states this is accurate. However, as my wife will attest, I have been wrong on plenty of occasions, and I'm sure that an Interpreter has been wrong before. That said, this dialogue has bothered me because I was starting to believe that I have been making the incorrect ruling with regards to this matter. As such, I decided to enlist the help of IAABO Coordinator of Rules Interpreters, Peter Webb. Below is his response to my question regarding a player laying on the floor.

"As is cited within you description:

A-1 does not have legal guarding position. The ruling is a blocking foul on A-1.

A-1 is fine laying on the floor, however, he/she is not in a legal position as per rule 4.23, when a player extends him/herself's body or body part beyond the normal stance/position and then contact occurs he/she is not in legal position.....ruling foul."

I feel better that what I have been ruling is corroborated. YMMV...hope this helps.

It's still not a foul on the player who is laying on the floor. I think NFHS rules committee trumps an interpreter.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by PG_Ref

It's still not a foul on the player who is laying on the floor. I think NFHS rules committee trumps an interpreter.

I agree. I'm a loyal IAABO member, and have been for thirty-two years, but Mr. Webb may change his tune if he sees the caseplay citation.

10.6.1 SITUATION E: B1 attempts to steal the ball from stationary A1 who is holding the ball. B1 misses the ball and falls to the floor. In dribbling away, A1 contacts B1's leg, loses control of the ball and falls to the floor.

RULING: No infraction or foul has occurred and play continues. Unless B1 made an effort to trip or block A1, he/she is entitled to a position on the court even if it is momentarily lying on the floor after falling down. (7-4-1, 2)

This is the part of Mr. Webb's interpretation that I question: "When a player extends him/herself's body or body part beyond the normal stance/position and then contact occurs he/she is not in legal position.....ruling foul."

We are discussing a player just lying on the floor, not a player lying on the floor that extends an arm, or a leg, to trip an opponent. We are talking about a player who trips over an opponent who happens to be lying on the floor. Remember, Confucius say: There's a difference between being tripped, and tripping.

ColeTops25: Did you make Mr. Webb aware of the caseplay? Be honest with us, because a few of us are IAABO members and we need to get some closure here.

[BktBallRef]

So the NFHS is wrong with their NFHS case play about an NFHS rule and an IAABO interpreter is correct.

Lah me.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

So the NFHS is wrong with their NFHS case play about an NFHS rule and an IAABO interpreter is correct.

Lah me.

It is, in fact, so wrong, I question whether Mr Webb was given the situation correctly. Either that or he's wholly unaware of the case play.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Adam

He's wholly unaware of the case play.

So I'll ask a second time:

Originally Posted by BillyMac

ColeTops25: Did you make Mr. Webb aware of the caseplay?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Lah me.

Exactly what Jurassic Referee would say.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by ColeTops25

I've learned many things reading posts on this forum. This thread caught my attention because I have been trained to believe that a player laying on the floor does not have LGP. My Interpreter states this is accurate.

I applaud you for coming here to try to learn. You appear to only be listening to PART of what is said to you in this thread. You're missing the important part. You've been told over and over that LGP is NOT required here. You (and your interpreter) are actually correct that laying on the floor is not LGP. Problem is - LGP is irrelevant here. Not sure how many times that needs to be said for it to sink in, but add me to the choir.

[ColeTops25]

As recommended, I copied and pasted the situation to Mr. Webb. His opinion has not changed. My guess is that rule interpretations change, and this is no exception. I have no idea what year that interpretation was written; it could have been from 1980 for all I know.

Mr. Webb sits on the NFHS Rules Committee. He is the Head Interpreter for IAABO. I am an IAABO official. In essence, my boss says this is the interpretation, therefore I will rule that situation as a block. You will tell me I'm wrong. That's fine. My boss tells me I'm right. When the rubber meets the road, I'm justified to make the ruling based on my training from IAABO.

[Tio]

Honestly, I am not a fan of the caseplay as written. I prefer the NCAA ruling. But some clarification/rationale would be great on the ruling (why NFHS rules committee won't change his mind).

[Adam]

You do realize LGP has nothing to do with a stationary player, right?