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Camron Rust Fri Jan 25, 2013 03:01am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 874293)
Here is the rule in the rulebook.

4-61...

Peace


Still doesn't answer the question...what does it take for a secondary defender to become the primary defender?

JetMetFan Fri Jan 25, 2013 03:08am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 874301)
Still doesn't answer the question...what does it take for a secondary defender to become the primary defender?

One scenario: A1 is driving towards the basket. B2 sets up in the RA as a secondary defender. A1 stops continuous movement towards the basket. A1 then continues the drive towards the basket. B2 is no longer a secondary defender because A1 stopped his/her drive.

Camron Rust Fri Jan 25, 2013 03:35am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetMetFan (Post 874302)
One scenario: A1 is driving towards the basket. B2 sets up in the RA as a secondary defender. A1 stops continuous movement towards the basket. A1 then continues the drive towards the basket. B2 is no longer a secondary defender because A1 stopped his/her drive.

Fine. That is easy, but what if the defender sets up outside the RA by 1-2 feet, a dribbler at the top of the key beats his man, and then the defender, the only one in the lane, steps back so they have a heel on the line. The dribbler comes at them and turning and shifting but that defender moves to stay in their path and after 4-5 steps there is contact. Is that a secondary defender or primary?

JetMetFan Fri Jan 25, 2013 03:42am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 874304)
Fine. That is easy, but what if the defender sets up outside the RA by 1-2 feet, a dribbler at the top of the key beats his man, and then the defender, the only one in the lane, steps back so they have a heel on the line. The dribbler comes at them and turning and shifting but that defender moves to stay in their path and after 4-5 steps there is contact. Is that a secondary defender or primary?

That's where my post from 2:24 EST kicks in. The NCAAW interp is that in this scenario B2 is not a SD because they established LGP outside of the RA. The rule still allows them to play defense as opposed to letting A1 blow by them.

I can only guess that it's the same in NCAAM but I'd feel better if an NCAAM's official confirmed that for me.

bob jenkins Fri Jan 25, 2013 08:47am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 874304)
Fine. That is easy, but what if the defender sets up outside the RA by 1-2 feet, a dribbler at the top of the key beats his man, and then the defender, the only one in the lane, steps back so they have a heel on the line. The dribbler comes at them and turning and shifting but that defender moves to stay in their path and after 4-5 steps there is contact. Is that a secondary defender or primary?

Well, it's a secondary defender, but it's still a charge. To be a block (in this type of play, not a blanket statement), the INITIAL LGP must be inside the RA.

JRutledge Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:52am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 874301)
Still doesn't answer the question...what does it take for a secondary defender to become the primary defender?

I thought Article 3 covered that possibility. Otherwise the definition seems clear to me. But I can see where you are going with this on some level. I would think that on a switch or something that takes place where a player is not driving to the basket, you could become the new primary defender other than what is listed.

Peace

Camron Rust Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:07am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 874324)
Well, it's a secondary defender, but it's still a charge. To be a block (in this type of play, not a blanket statement), the INITIAL LGP must be inside the RA.

OK good answer.

Now, what if the defender was never outside the RA. Can they become a primary defender? Perhaps they were the only one in position to stop the drive and opponent was coming at them for 4-5 steps, perhaps shifting to maintain that position but never leaving the RA, and had ample time to take a new route or stop (the defender had plenty of time to step up too). Is that defender now a primary?

The point I'm trying to explore (and I'm not really sure here) is that it being in or out of the RA appears to not be as black and while as it may at first seem. There are ways for a defender that sets up in the RA to still draw the charge by becoming a primary.

The primary purpose of adding the RA really seems to have been to stop the last second cutoffs by a rotating secondary defender, not a player who was there all along.

Camron Rust Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:08am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 874356)
I would think that on a switch or something that takes place where a player is not driving to the basket, you could become the new primary defender other than what is listed.

Peace

Exactly. At some point, a player has to have a way to change from being a secondary defender to being a primary defender. If not, everyone could end up being a secondary defender forever with no way out. So, how long does a player have to be the one covering the opponent and at what distance in order be consider a new primary defender?

bob jenkins Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:15am

When they stop their drive, when they pull it back out, etc.

I don't think you'll ever get a precise definition because of all the variables.

Wellmer Fri Jan 25, 2013 02:35pm

Anybody see in the 1st play, #14 for North Carolina? Not enough contact to make a difference in this case?

Raymond Fri Jan 25, 2013 02:54pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wellmer (Post 874402)
Anybody see in the 1st play, #14 for North Carolina? Not enough contact to make a difference in this case?

I noticed there was some contact. I had to watch again to see how severe it was and whether it affected A1 movement.

Edit: Just rewatched it. No foul on #14.

Wellmer Fri Jan 25, 2013 04:01pm

Thought he got a pretty good nudge but maybe not enough to warrant a foul by college standards?


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