UNC/Georgia Tech
 

9:07 left, second half. Anyone have access to the video?

4:20, second half as well.

Doris Burke is an idiot.

I did not even see the play and I already know this fact. ;)

Peace

First play:

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="https://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/4BrnKTJ5T8g" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Second play:

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="https://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/DjWbAl0KVfI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Play #1--Block only because it appears that the player is in the RA. Not by much but with the heels.

Play #2--I have a PC foul. I think the defender was there and the very little movement is not enough for me to call a block.

Peace

First play is definitely a block...not sure if the C saw it (I think he should have been able to), but if he saw the defender in the RA, then he needs to give that information to the lead.

Second play: the lead calls a player control foul and motions that the shooter led with a foot, and I tend to agree. I'd have a foul on the shooter, regardless of the RA (if it was in play here).

First play involves a secondary defender who has his right heel on the arc of the RA at the time of the contact.
Second play is also a secondary defender, but he is fully outside the arc and has obtained ILGP before the opponent becomes airborne.

I'd say the crew was 1/2 in NCAA, but would be 2/2 in NFHS.

What infinite wisdom did Doris bestow on us in her baritone-like voice?

And the operative word is crew. Someone could have helped the Lead on the first play to get that play right.

Peace

Block by RA in #1.
Charge in #2.

I think the teammate's foot blocked the view of McAdoo's foot on the RA arc.

The Heels seem to get Burke every time they play on ESPN lately. Good time to mute the TV and listen to the radio broadcast.

C definitely should've been able to come in and help on play #1. If you stop the clip at 0:06 or at 0:14 there's no one blocking his view of the RA. For me, the big hint would been the UNC player backing away from A1. It's kind of tough to back up that deep in the lane and not end up in the RA.

Since the play was coming from the strong side the T could've seen this as well. I realize he has two players in his area but that really wasn't a competetive matchup.

That brings up an interesting question...

For the most part, the RA is to address secondary defenders rotating from a position such that they don't have time to get through and outside the RA to set up in LGP and the stop under the basket having never been otherwise in the opponents path.

In this case, the defender actually had LGP outside of the RA initially. He then stepped back into the RA as the opponent approached. Perhaps that should make him the primary defender???? At what point does a secondary defender become a primary? Clearly they do at some point...where is it?

Here is the rule in the rulebook.

4-61

Section 61. Secondary Defender

Art. 1. A secondary defender is a teammate who has helped a primary defender after that player has been beaten by an opponent because he/she failed to establish or maintain a guarding position. A defensive player is beaten when the offensive player’s head and shoulders get past the defender.

Art. 2. A secondary defender is a teammate who double teams a low post player.

Art. 3. After an offensive rebound, there are no secondary defenders when the
rebounder makes an immediate move to the basket.

Art. 4. In an outnumbering fast-break situation, any defensive player(s) initially shall be a secondary defender.

Peace

Okay...I'm going to revise my position based on an NCAAW interpretation update we received in December of 2011 and the last two posts by JRut and Camron. Play #1 was called correctly (assuming NCAAM received the same update we did):

Again, if NCAAM received the same interp we did then the play was called correctly. The UNC player first established LGP in the RA, then he came out of the RA and re-established LGP. Once he did that he was okay.

JRut's post jarred my memory since the RA rule says a player can't establish initial LGP in the RA. It doesn't say establishing outside of the RA then maintaining into the RA is illegal, which makes sense because it would severely hamper a team's ability to play defense.

Again, if any NCAAM officials can check Arbiter from December of 2011 you probably have the same update we did.

Still doesn't answer the question...what does it take for a secondary defender to become the primary defender?

One scenario: A1 is driving towards the basket. B2 sets up in the RA as a secondary defender. A1 stops continuous movement towards the basket. A1 then continues the drive towards the basket. B2 is no longer a secondary defender because A1 stopped his/her drive.

Fine. That is easy, but what if the defender sets up outside the RA by 1-2 feet, a dribbler at the top of the key beats his man, and then the defender, the only one in the lane, steps back so they have a heel on the line. The dribbler comes at them and turning and shifting but that defender moves to stay in their path and after 4-5 steps there is contact. Is that a secondary defender or primary?

That's where my post from 2:24 EST kicks in. The NCAAW interp is that in this scenario B2 is not a SD because they established LGP outside of the RA. The rule still allows them to play defense as opposed to letting A1 blow by them.

I can only guess that it's the same in NCAAM but I'd feel better if an NCAAM's official confirmed that for me.

Well, it's a secondary defender, but it's still a charge. To be a block (in this type of play, not a blanket statement), the INITIAL LGP must be inside the RA.

I thought Article 3 covered that possibility. Otherwise the definition seems clear to me. But I can see where you are going with this on some level. I would think that on a switch or something that takes place where a player is not driving to the basket, you could become the new primary defender other than what is listed.

Peace

OK good answer.

Now, what if the defender was never outside the RA. Can they become a primary defender? Perhaps they were the only one in position to stop the drive and opponent was coming at them for 4-5 steps, perhaps shifting to maintain that position but never leaving the RA, and had ample time to take a new route or stop (the defender had plenty of time to step up too). Is that defender now a primary?

The point I'm trying to explore (and I'm not really sure here) is that it being in or out of the RA appears to not be as black and while as it may at first seem. There are ways for a defender that sets up in the RA to still draw the charge by becoming a primary.

The primary purpose of adding the RA really seems to have been to stop the last second cutoffs by a rotating secondary defender, not a player who was there all along.

Exactly. At some point, a player has to have a way to change from being a secondary defender to being a primary defender. If not, everyone could end up being a secondary defender forever with no way out. So, how long does a player have to be the one covering the opponent and at what distance in order be consider a new primary defender?

When they stop their drive, when they pull it back out, etc.

I don't think you'll ever get a precise definition because of all the variables.

Anybody see in the 1st play, #14 for North Carolina? Not enough contact to make a difference in this case?

I noticed there was some contact. I had to watch again to see how severe it was and whether it affected A1 movement.

Edit: Just rewatched it. No foul on #14.

Thought he got a pretty good nudge but maybe not enough to warrant a foul by college standards?