IMHO, the POE dictates that this "should be an intentional foul". In my NCAA-M games, this is a Flagrant 1 every time (and we pre-game it that way before every game).

I have an intentional. We were specifically instructed by our rules interperter that this play is an intentional foul due to the elbow being moving.

So every coach I know, teaches players to chin the ball and pivot. We better make sure that anytime a defensive player gets up on an offensive player and just barely touches them, we better have a foul on the defense, because they are taught to chin and pivot.

Who cares what players are taught? That doesn't necessarily make it right or legal.

That is true.

I taught them this too when I coached bc I knew it would rarely be called and then it was never intentional. This didn't make it legal only effective bc it was rarely enforced.

No, it isn't. A player can rotate at the waist and above without pivoting the whole body....that would be a moving elbow. Depending on the speed/force that they rotate, it might be excessive or not. You wouldn't need the adjective excessive if all movement of the elbows were considered the same so there must be some level of elbow movement that isn't considered excessive.

So, it seems like you're differentiating between pivoting on a pivot foot and rotating at the waist. And based on that differentiation, it sounds like you're saying that a player who pivots on a pivot foot does not have a moving elbow; in which case, if that elbow makes contact above the shoulders of an opponent, you could have nothing or a common foul.

Is that right so far?

If so, it then also sounds like you're saying if that same player rotates at the waist (instead of pivoting on the pivot foot), without the elbows moving faster than the torso, and the elbow makes contact above the shoulders of an opponent, that's an intentional foul.

Is that right?

This is how I see it.

Most likley... although I do accept that the possibility of an intentional foul does still exist.

Not quite...I challenge you to rotate at the waist without the elbows moving at least a little faster than the torso....but the difference is leading with the elbows vs. twisting the body. Lead with the elbow....intentional. Lead with the elbow viciously, flagrant.

+2

9-13-2

A player may extend arm(s) or elbow(s) to hold the ball under the chin or against the body.

If they do this and pivot and the elbows aren't moving faster than the torso, or shoulders, it is either incidental contact or a player control.

Seems to me that the way Colorado and Washington are teaching this POE makes more sense with the rule, even if it doesn't mesh with the wording, linguistically.

IMHO, that is a LUDICROUS distinction. You are going to penalize the same contact differently because of the method used to pivot???? Pivot on your foot and hit a guy above the shoulders, it's (maybe) a PC foul. Pivot at the waist at same speed and hit a guy above the shoulders, it's intentional. That makes absolutely zero sense to me.

I just did it. Easily. In fact, I did it twice, because it was so easy that I thought that maybe I wasn't paying close enough attention to my elbows. The only thing that was marginally difficult was getting the elbows to stop at the same time as my torso. Because of the momentum generated while twisting, my elbows continued to move slightly after I stopped twisting my torso. But more than likely, any contact will occur before the torso is done twisting, so that doesn't come into play.

Just talked to the Director of Officiating for our state, and presented this scenerio.

Interpretation: Looking at Rule 9-13...A moving elbow would be faster than the body so this elbow you have described would not be defined as excessive...contact with this elbow is not automatically a foul.