Easiest Toss I've Ever Had

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by zm1283

To be clear, I wasn't implying in any of my posts that you were playing good cop and giving the coach your shoulder to cry on. I was kind of lamenting that happening with guys I've worked with, and your thread was an easy one to relate to. I think you guys handled it well.

And for the record, you are correct about the knee jerk reactions on this board and the nit-picking just to make things interesting.

No worries. I wasn't referring to your posts, and I agree with what you said earlier, in fact. That's why, as I said, I pregame that stuff with my partners, so they know in that situation if I go over to the coach, it's to inform him of his loss of the coaching box rather than to give him a shoulder to cry on.

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by fiasco

LOL...you can't win for losing on this board.

I love all the knee-jerk assumption judgment that goes on in a lot of threads, like has gone on in this one, with certain people looking for some nit to pick to make the thread controversial or interesting.

Had I posted in my scenario that I didn't go over and give the coach the seatbelt, then he came flying off the bench and screamed at my partner and we had to toss him, then it would have been my fault for not properly communicating with the coach that he had lost his coaching box privileges. You can't win, no matter what you do!

Fact is, coaches in my area really don't know these kinds of rules, as some have assumed. I mean, in the same quarter, we had coaches for both sides complaining that why were we administering the common foul shots first and not administering the FTs for the Ts first. "You're thinking of college." I said to both of them. "In HS, fouls are administered in the order in which they occurred." More blank stares. That's just the way it is in my area. Coaches can't be bothered to learn the nuances of the rules like this. Which is fine. But then it falls upon the officials to do a bit of educating during the game. (Especially when the coach has already been T'd up and is standing at the edge of his coaching box not moving)

So do you think these bozos know anything about a coaching box? No. I had to inform the assistant coach of the offending team (after the HC had been tossed) that he didn't have a coaching box either and he had zero clue what I was talking about. So you're telling me that I should let him just do whatever he wants, let him stand and use the coaching box, then go over to him later and tell him to have a seat once he's already used the coaching box? No thanks, that approach only leads to more agitation.

My approach is to politely and professionally educate when the situation warrants. If the coach wants to flip out on me, that's on him and I'm not losing any sleep over it. Like I said, easy T. I'd rather T up a coach while I'm telling him he's got a seatbelt than have to T him later for using the coaching box that he's lost because I didn't communicate properly with him.

I guess I just don't believe in pussy footing around coaches just to avoid technical fouls. Does that mean I intentionally insert myself in situations in order to call technical fouls? No, I'm over that "bravado" phase and have moved to a point in my career where a "T" truly is like any other foul to me.

And I know what it means to have my partner's back, which is what I did. I communicated with him after his T that I was going over to give coach the seatbelt, so my partner didn't think I was going to give him a shoulder to cry on (in fact, I pregame this with all my partners). And I didn't stand there nodding my head to the coach and having the kind of body language that shows sympathy. This isn't my first rodeo.

The only question I had was whether or not, in that situation, it warrants a 3rd T for a coach who wants to continue jawing at you. I appreciate those of you who responded to my actual question.

You have assumed that this particular coach doesn't know the rule upon receiving a TF. It is not your job to educate. Coaches are supposed to have some sort of rules knowledge. It helps them when they cry for 3 seconds, traveling and all the other stuff they ask for. If you are going to educate during the game it is going to be a long night for everyone. Coaches know. My 5th graders coach knows. They have seen and they have heard about it from other coaches, fans, athletic directors, and others.

The point was that you are not required to tell a coach they no longer have use of the coaches box. You took upon yourself to interject yourself into partners crap. Let them live with it. You can always inform the coach after the FT's, the subsequent inbound play, or at some other point in the game. If you think it is your job to educate and inform them of their new conditions you also needed to state that there are still times when they can get up: to request TO's, spontaneously react to a good play, replace a DQ'd player, etc. Now that would have been some educating.

Do the coach, the game and your partner a favor by staying away from the coach for a few moments. Delaying these instructions does not harm the game, your credibility, or your crew. It looks like you are over there to dump more crap on the coach (who already thought the TF was BS) under the guise of backing up your partner. If my partner calls a weak, mysterious TF, I will back them up. I won't go there to tell the coach they lost the privilege only to hear them chirp something else. Instead of moving on, you became the highlight of the night. Congrats on the fiasco and being the talk of the local watering hole.

As far as a 3rd TF, please indicate what rule there is for issuing a 3rd Direct TF to the coach. Guess someone else needs some education.

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

You have assumed that this particular coach doesn't know the rule upon receiving a TF. It is not your job to educate. Coaches are supposed to have some sort of rules knowledge. It helps them when they cry for 3 seconds, traveling and all the other stuff they ask for? They know. They have seen and they have heard about it from other coaches, fans, athletic directors, and others. If you are going to educate during the game it is going to be a long night for everyone.

The point was that you are not required to tell a coach they no longer have use of the coaches box. You took upon yourself to interject yourself into partners crap. Let them live with it. You can always inform the coach after the FT's, the subsequent inbound play, or at some other point in the game. If you think it is your job to educate and inform them of their new conditions you also needed to state that there are still times when they can get up: to request TO's, spontaneously react to a good play, replace a DQ'd player, etc. Now that would have been some educating.

Do the coach, the game and your partner a favor by staying away from the coach for a few moments. Delaying these instructions does not harm the game, your credibility, or your crew. It looks like you are over there to dump more crap on the coach (who already thought the TF was BS) under the guise of backing up your partner. If my partner calls a weak, unknown TF, I certainly will back them up. I won't go there to tell them they lost the privilege only to hear them chirp something else. Instead of moving on, you became the highlight of the night. Congrats on the fiasco of the night.

As far as a 3rd TF, please indicate what rule there is for issuing a 3rd Direct TF to the coach. Then you will be getting some educ-ma-cation from your assignor. Assuming you get educated at all.

Once again, you're talking out of your rear end without any clue. It's standard procedure in my association to inform the coaches. That's the bottom line. Doesn't really matter what you say, so you can take your advice and stick it in your ear.

I called my assignor after the game to assist him in filling out the state report and he said "Great job, you did exactly what you were supposed to."

So go find a jamboree where you can order around some newbie officials and get your rocks off.

As someone wise used to say, "Lah, me."

[fiasco]

If you think it is your job to educate and inform them of their new conditions you also needed to state that there are still times when they can get up: to request TO's, spontaneously react to a good play, replace a DQ'd player, etc. Now that would have been some educating.

Oh, fancy that. This happens to be the exact conversation I had with the assistant coach after I ran the head coach. It's too bad the head coach got mouthy before I could get to this part.

Lah, me.

[VaTerp]

"The call stands, coach. You'll have to have a seat."

This is the quote that I don't like and that I think escalates the situation instead of diffusing it. And based on experiences in my association, my assignor would not like either. Of course, that JMO.

But I do LOL at the OP getting so defensive. If you're assignor wants things handled that way then more power to you. But it doesnt meant others arent going to comment how they see fit and offer their $0.02 based on their perspectives and how it may or may not help others reading the thread.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by fiasco

Once again, you're talking out of your rear end without any clue. It's standard procedure in my association to inform the coaches. That's the bottom line. Doesn't really matter what you say, so you can take your advice and stick it in your ear.

I called my assignor after the game to assist him in filling out the state report and he said "Great job, you did exactly what you were supposed to."

So go find a jamboree where you can order around some newbie officials and get your rocks off.

As someone wise used to say, "Lah, me."

Didn't you come here with this story? You expected everyone to just say nothing about the details?

Now you mad because someone said something that you did not like?

Peace

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Didn't you come here with this story? You expected everyone to just say nothing about the details?

Now you mad because someone said something that you did not like?

Peace

Thanks for your comments, Jeff.

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by fiasco

Oh, fancy that. This happens to be the exact conversation I had with the assistant coach after I ran the head coach. It's too bad the head coach got mouthy before I could get to this part.

Lah, me.

You gave the exact instructions to the the Asst Coach, AFTER you ran the HC. Too late. And you are STILL over by the coaches crapping on them. They have no where to go to get away from you. You have all the power because you have a whistle and get to enforce the rules, you can leave the coaches whenever you want, you can give instructions all night long and they have to sit there and take it because they cannot get away from you.

There were plenty of comments that suggested you do something else. There was no immediate need to address a situation that was not escalating until you decided to educate.

In the end you won, you had the biggest tool on the court that night.

And BTW, I asked you what rules support you have for a 3rd direct TF on a coach? Just keep whacking away, you'll chop down that tree eventually.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Didn't you come here with this story? You expected everyone to just say nothing about the details?

Now you mad because someone said something that you did not like?

Peace

My thoughts also. Why give all those details about the game? Why not just post:

Here's my question. Obviously after a second T a coach is gone, but would you consider giving him a third for sitting there yelling after he's been ejected?

Fiasco is allowed to talk about a whole bunch of things that have nothing to do with the question, but no one else is?

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

"The call stands, coach. You'll have to have a seat."

This is the quote that I don't like and that I think escalates the situation instead of diffusing it.

Fair enough. I understand what you're getting at, and I'll put this in my pocket for next time. Thanks.

I will say I think it's incredibly difficult to communicate all the nuances, tones, inflections, reactions, body language, emotions and energy that go on in a particular situation.

Which is why, in a forum such as this one, taking an approach such as "Hey, fiasco, instead of what you said, what if you had tried XYZ?" is probably a more meaningful and productive approach to a discussion instead saying "Well, you crapped all over that coach, way to go."

That's just childish, and it's picking for an argument just to pick for an argument.

I accept the blame for taking the bait.

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Fiasco is allowed to talk about a whole bunch of things that have nothing to do with the question, but no one else is?

I've never said no one is allowed to question anything. It's the manner in which things on here are discussed. People feeling like it's their calling in life to get on their high horse and give another official a talking to about how they are approaching their game. I've seen it before, and I'll see it again.

If it really makes you feel better about yourself to come down on another official and talk about things out of context and offer an opinion that's based on nothing but your own interpretation of the situation instead of asking questions first to clarify just to show how much more experience or knowledge you have, then by all means, have at it.

I know that kind of official in real life, and when I come across them, it's a short pre-game, get in, get done, get out. They think they have the answer to everything and are accountable for nothing. I don't have too much patience for that.

You're free to act however you want, whether that's here on this forum or out on the court. I'm not trying to tell you not to say anything. I'm saying take a look at how you say things.

[Rich]

My goodness, knock it off. All of you.

Cleanup on aisle 3.

[packersowner]

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.......

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I did not tell you to ignore anything

Just ignore the advice and move on man.

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by fiasco

Fair enough. I understand what you're getting at, and I'll put this in my pocket for next time. Thanks.

I will say I think it's incredibly difficult to communicate all the nuances, tones, inflections, reactions, body language, emotions and energy that go on in a particular situation.

Which is why, in a forum such as this one, taking an approach such as "Hey, fiasco, instead of what you said, what if you had tried XYZ?" is probably a more meaningful and productive approach to a discussion instead saying "Well, you crapped all over that coach, way to go."

That's just childish, and it's picking for an argument just to pick for an argument.

I accept the blame for taking the bait.

Agree 100% with the bolded, which is one of the reasons I am not trying to be overly critical in this situation.

My initial comment in this thread was about a situation I had and how I think I could have handled it better and learned from the experience.

And I don't think I've read anyone say Fiasco handled this horribly, he should have done XYZ. I think it's more along the lines of this is why it's best to not engage the coach at all after our partners stick them. Because almost anything we say, no matter how well intentioned is more likely to escalate the situation than diffuse it and in some cases can make it appear as if you are coddling the coach or undermining your partner.

Officiating is an art not a science. Nobody here is perfect and I think we all know that. And I do agree with you that people on here can nitpick and come across a little high and mighty a little too often for my taste.

But my sense of this thread is that people are just giving their perspective and suggestions on why they handle things certain ways. The experience you shared should be used as a learning opportunity for everyone. No need to attack or defend the way the situation was handled IMO.