An hour, 45 minute MS game

[bainsey]

I didn't work this one, but a friend (parent and fellow soccer official) was Facebook-ing about a middle school game that went 1:45, no overtime. (Her kid's team came from a 13-point deficit to win in the last minute.)

When I asked her about the number of fouls, she replied: "A lot.... [The officials] actually called what they should, most every carry, travel, lane violation, etc. It is how the kids learn. Many MS refs I find call about 1/3 of the calls and let the kids maul each other."

I certainly understand lightening up on the travelling, carrying, etc., or, as many a vet official has said, "we'd never get out of there." Bear in mind, too, we don't talk kids out of the lane here. I certainly don't advocate swallowing the whistle on fouls (and I have a JVG game from last night to prove it), but what are your thoughts? Are we doing a disservice by passing on some calls at lower levels, and do the younger kids really learn?

[Adam]

It depends on the talent level. Kids don't learn basketball by practicing throw in plays, but with lower talent, they are typically less able to play through as much contact, thus more fouls. Most coaches here don't really want every travel called in lower level games, even if they do occasionally ask for one.

I do enjoy the comedy of a middle school parent expounding on officiating philosophy.

[MD Longhorn]

I believe I've learned more from watching my daughters' MS games than from clinics, HS games, and this board combined. Sub par officials I can live with. Officials of whatever talent level that refuse to hustle because the game is beneath them, and who simply want to let the clock run as much as possible so they can get out of there drive me freaking crazy.

Last week's game featured one play where the opponent (winning by 30ish) camped so long in the lane that the crowd was counting and got to 12 - no whistle. And also a girl on our team was running and dribbling - and when she stopped, her defender who was chasing her from behind crashed into her, knocked her down, stumbled and LITERALLY stepped on her back. The call? Out of bounds on us when the ball rolled away. The reason? Calling official was 2 steps off the OTHER baseline (yes, about 3/4 of the court away from the play). Nevermind the numerous double dribbles and travels that weren't called either way.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

I believe I've learned more from watching my daughters' MS games than from clinics, HS games, and this board combined.

Really? Middle School officiating is a no win situation. It's the worst level to call. It does very little to advance anyone's officiating career.

[PG_Ref]

Originally Posted by Smitty

Really? Middle School officiating is a no win situation. It's the worst level to call. It does very little to advance anyone's officiating career.

Maybe where you are. In our area, most of the middle school games are competitive and are good for getting newer officials ready for JV (that is, before middle school sports was done away with). All depends on the talent level and matchups.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by Adam

It depends on the talent level. Kids don't learn basketball by practicing throw in plays, but with lower talent, they are typically less able to play through as much contact, thus more fouls. Most coaches here don't really want every travel called in lower level games, even if they do occasionally ask for one.

I agree with this.

You "can" have MS games or 13U games with flow if you're fortunate. Managing the game can certainly be a challenge, but it can be done.

A game where officials blow the whistle every 5-10 secs is no fun for anyone... but, as has been stated, you can't be lazy and let it all go either.

That's why we get paid the big money!

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Adam

I do enjoy the comedy of a middle school parent expounding on officiating philosophy.

Around here we say that parents know as much about basketball rules as they know about raising kids.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Adam

I do enjoy the comedy of a middle school parent expounding on officiating philosophy.

This particular parent gets a lot more leeway, as she's worn stripes, and worked deep into the post-season. Different sport, granted, but I can't say what she's saying is wrong.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bainsey

This particular parent gets a lot more leeway, as she's worn stripes, and worked deep into the post-season. Different sport, granted, but I can't say what she's saying is wrong.

Fair enough, but the primary point stands. There are some games where you just have to, but when kids can't control their feet, I'm looking for either an advantage or a significant travel.

[jTheUmp]

Originally Posted by Adam

when kids can't control their feet, I'm looking for either an advantage or a significant travel.

^ This.

A couple of my favorites:
1) the coach in an 11U girls rec game that was constantly complaining about traveling, every time the other team had the ball (nothing, of course, when his team had the ball, even though they were just as bad). After I got fed up with it, I asked the coach if he really wanted me to call every single travel violation. He said yes. The next 8 possessions lasted about 5 seconds each before a traveling violation. Finally I turned over to him and said "did I make my point, coach?" "yes." "Ok, thank you".

I would never do that again, of course.

2) "Three second" parents. The ones who constantly yell for a 3-second violation on the other team... situations including, but not limited to:
a) while the ball is in the backcourt.
b) while the ball is dead after a foul call.
c) during a throw-in.
d) PRIOR TO the start of a throw-in.
e) during one of those marathon miss-a-shot-get-an-offensive-rebound-shoot-again-miss-offensive-rebound-rinse-repeat sequences.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

2) "Three second" parents. The ones who constantly yell for a 3-second violation on the other team... situations including, but not limited to:
a) while the ball is in the backcourt.
b) while the ball is dead after a foul call.
c) during a throw-in.
d) PRIOR TO the start of a throw-in.
e) during one of those marathon miss-a-shot-get-an-offensive-rebound-shoot-again-miss-offensive-rebound-rinse-repeat sequences.

Point taken... and I (as well as the rest of the crowd) am not that guy. In this particular case, the team would dribble up until they were guarded, and then turn their back to the basket (to protect their dribble). And dribble, and dribble, and dribble. The one time we got to 12, it was probably a 5-second violation too, although we never once saw them counting a 5, no matter how closely guarded they were.

We do have good officials in the area doing MS games. It just seems that every 3-4 games or so, we get Joe Paycheck whose whistle only seems to work when the ball goes out of bounds, and who never, ever actually moves to the right position or shows any hustle.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

It just seems that every 3-4 games or so, we get Joe Paycheck whose whistle only seems to work when the ball goes out of bounds, and who never, ever actually moves to the right position or shows any hustle.

Sometimes I get those guys as partners and it's not very enjoyable for me either.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by PG_Ref

Maybe where you are. In our area, most of the middle school games are competitive and are good for getting newer officials ready for JV (that is, before middle school sports was done away with). All depends on the talent level and matchups.

"competitive" and "talent" are very relative terms. Middle school games certainly don't prepare anyone for JV - maybe for freshman ball. But I tend to live in larger metro areas - JV is a very huge leap from middle school.

[dsqrddgd909]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

e) during one of those marathon miss-a-shot-get-an-offensive-rebound-shoot-again-miss-offensive-rebound-rinse-repeat sequences.

^ made me laugh.

[RSturgell]

The "paycheck official" is the one guy that drives me crazy watching my daughter. At least be in position if a call is missed or show some effort.

Around here some of the MS boys games are very competitive and allows you to see a lot of situations to use as a learning experience.