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Tue Jul 08, 2003, 06:31pm
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Okay, a basketball question. i asked this a year or so ago, still don't feel comfortable with it. Saw it several times today, and feeling confused.
A1 and B1 both go for rebound, get there same time, we almost have a jump, but B1 gets control. In the process, B1 pivots, and A1's hand and arm go with B1. Now B1 has the ball, but also has A1's hand and arm. A1 is trying to get loose, but can't. It seems like there ought to be something there, but what!?!? 
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Tue Jul 08, 2003, 07:46pm
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Ugh. I remember this from last year. Without seeing it, I'm going to have to say incidental contact. This seems textbook - neither at an advantage, both going for the ball. That said, once B1 clearly gets posession if he moves his arms at all to hold A1 (which he probably won't do because B1 is going to want to go to the basket) then we have a hold. If he does nothing but A1 is still held, no foul. I'd also be lenient on any minor contact on A1's part in trying to extricate himself.
__________________
"To win the game is great. To play the game is greater. But to love the game is the greatest of all."
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Tue Jul 08, 2003, 10:19pm
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No call...
In your scenario, neither player had initial control. If one player is able to secure control, (s)he cannot be penalized if there was no advantage gained through contact. Let 'em play, I say. There's lots of situations in a game where there "seems like there's gotta be something", but there isn't. Making this distinction is tough a lot of the time. That's why, I believe, it's one of the things that separate the very good officials from the good officials. Like I always say....
__________________
HOMER: Just gimme my gun. CLERK: Hold on, the law requires a five-day waiting period; we've got run a background check... HOMER: Five days???? But I'm mad NOW!!
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Wed Jul 09, 2003, 12:26am
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By the way you describe it there is no call!
I am assuming the arm has been trapped by the actions of B1. If however A1 does not try to remove the arm and makes aplay at the ball then certainly there will need to be a call.
__________________
I once had a sense of humour but now I am a referee
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Wed Jul 09, 2003, 06:08am
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Jewel, If the contact merits a foul, I can easily rationalize 'illegal hands' by the defense. I'll give offense credit for a better rebound, for making a heads-up play. It's obvious that defender got there a little late, a little weakly. I have not, yet, called a PC on this play. Nor do I intend to call a PC in the future. mick
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Wed Jul 09, 2003, 08:39am
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Juulie, you know sometimes there are plays that are legal but just look ugly as they can be. It sounds from the way you described it that this is just one of those ugly plays. Both players came into contact with the ball legally, however B1 was just stronger than A1. B1's strength brought A1 into an assumed illegal position, but I don't think we can penalize B1 because they weren't as strong on this play when they did nothing illegal to begin with. What you have to watch for on this play is to make sure that A1, whose arm is trapped, does not try to retaliate while attempting to get free
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Wed Jul 09, 2003, 09:02am
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Thanks, all, for the replies. I've never seen anyone call anything on this, but as Hoosier says, it looks ugly. I'll just keep on no-calling it and add it to the list of coach-comments to ignore.
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Wed Jul 09, 2003, 09:11am
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Juulie, got a link to the original thread?
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Wed Jul 09, 2003, 09:12am
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I usually no call this because, like eveyone has mentioned, it is normally just something that looks bad with no harm. However, earlier this summer I had a play where the boy who gained control pinned the defender's arm between his body and arm. When the defender attempted to pull it out, the kid with the ball clamped his arm down on his body and twisted. Then looked at me and said "Where's the call?" TWEET...Hold, 24 white! And I actually signaled hold..don't ask me why I didn't signal PC (brain fart) but at least everyone knew what I saw.
Coach started yelling, but at his player (and I mean really got onto him).
__________________
I didn't say it was your fault...I said I was going to blame you.
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Wed Jul 09, 2003, 10:29am
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Ok to add a fly in the ointment. What if when the B1 pivots the stuck arm causes him to shuffle/stumble. What do you have now?? Travel? Push? Holding? No Call? Just wondering
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Wed Jul 09, 2003, 10:47am
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 ("...but I was just tryin' to get away, but he had my arm!")
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Wed Jul 09, 2003, 10:26pm
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Yes but if the arm is trapped by the other player then as long as no further contact other than trying to pull it out there can be no foul
Forget the B**** about who is bigger or stronger Get a feel for what is right Sometimes you need to throw the rule book away and get that feel for the game.
__________________
I once had a sense of humour but now I am a referee
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Thu Jul 10, 2003, 10:49am
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Don't you find in these situations that it always leads to more trouble. I see in these situations, most times B1 will start pivoting wildly to get A1's hand loose.
I agree it's nbo call at first but once B1 starts pivotong to get the hand loose something needs to be done to protect the players. Not an easy call, but I agree use our judgement and call something only if we need to.
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Thu Jul 10, 2003, 10:55am
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