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rainmaker Tue Jul 08, 2003 06:31pm

Okay, a basketball question. i asked this a year or so ago, still don't feel comfortable with it. Saw it several times today, and feeling confused.

A1 and B1 both go for rebound, get there same time, we almost have a jump, but B1 gets control. In the process, B1 pivots, and A1's hand and arm go with B1. Now B1 has the ball, but also has A1's hand and arm. A1 is trying to get loose, but can't. It seems like there ought to be something there, but what!?!?

Mark Dexter Tue Jul 08, 2003 07:46pm

Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker
Okay, a basketball question
Not allowed. It's summer, dammit!

Quote:


A1 and B1 both go for rebound, get there same time, we almost have a jump, but B1 gets control. In the process, B1 pivots, and A1's hand and arm go with B1. Now B1 has the ball, but also has A1's hand and arm. A1 is trying to get loose, but can't. It seems like there ought to be something there, but what!?!?


Ugh. I remember this from last year. Without seeing it, I'm going to have to say incidental contact. This seems textbook - neither at an advantage, both going for the ball.

That said, once B1 clearly gets posession if he moves his arms at all to hold A1 (which he probably won't do because B1 is going to want to go to the basket) then we have a hold. If he does nothing but A1 is still held, no foul. I'd also be lenient on any minor contact on A1's part in trying to extricate himself.

canuckrefguy Tue Jul 08, 2003 10:19pm

No call...

In your scenario, neither player had initial control. If one player is able to secure control, (s)he cannot be penalized if there was no advantage gained through contact. Let 'em play, I say.

There's lots of situations in a game where there "seems like there's gotta be something", but there isn't. Making this distinction is tough a lot of the time. That's why, I believe, it's one of the things that separate the very good officials from the good officials.

Like I always say....

Malcolm Tucker Wed Jul 09, 2003 12:26am

By the way you describe it there is no call!

I am assuming the arm has been trapped by the actions of B1.

If however A1 does not try to remove the arm and makes aplay at the ball then certainly there will need to be a call.

mick Wed Jul 09, 2003 06:08am

Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker
Okay, a basketball question. i asked this a year or so ago, still don't feel comfortable with it. Saw it several times today, and feeling confused.

A1 and B1 both go for rebound, get there same time, we almost have a jump, but B1 gets control. In the process, B1 pivots, and A1's hand and arm go with B1. Now B1 has the ball, but also has A1's hand and arm. A1 is trying to get loose, but can't. It seems like there ought to be something there, but what!?!?


Jewel,
If the contact merits a foul, I can easily rationalize 'illegal hands' by the defense.

I'll give offense credit for a better rebound, for making a heads-up play. It's obvious that defender got there a little late, a little weakly.

I have not, yet, called a PC on this play. Nor do I intend to call a PC in the future.

mick

mick Wed Jul 09, 2003 07:00am

Quote:

Originally posted by Mark Dexter
I'd also be lenient on any minor contact on A1's part in trying to extricate himself.

Sounds like a personal issue.

Hoosier Wed Jul 09, 2003 08:39am

Juulie, you know sometimes there are plays that are legal but just look ugly as they can be. It sounds from the way you described it that this is just one of those ugly plays. Both players came into contact with the ball legally, however B1 was just stronger than A1. B1's strength brought A1 into an assumed illegal position, but I don't think we can penalize B1 because they weren't as strong on this play when they did nothing illegal to begin with. What you have to watch for on this play is to make sure that A1, whose arm is trapped, does not try to retaliate while attempting to get free

rainmaker Wed Jul 09, 2003 09:02am

Thanks, all, for the replies. I've never seen anyone call anything on this, but as Hoosier says, it looks ugly. I'll just keep on no-calling it and add it to the list of coach-comments to ignore.

Dan_ref Wed Jul 09, 2003 09:11am

Juulie, got a link to the original thread?


LarryS Wed Jul 09, 2003 09:12am

I usually no call this because, like eveyone has mentioned, it is normally just something that looks bad with no harm. However, earlier this summer I had a play where the boy who gained control pinned the defender's arm between his body and arm. When the defender attempted to pull it out, the kid with the ball clamped his arm down on his body and twisted. Then looked at me and said "Where's the call?" TWEET...Hold, 24 white! And I actually signaled hold..don't ask me why I didn't signal PC (brain fart) but at least everyone knew what I saw.

Coach started yelling, but at his player (and I mean really got onto him).

RefSouthAlb Wed Jul 09, 2003 10:29am


Ok to add a fly in the ointment. What if when the B1 pivots the stuck arm causes him to shuffle/stumble. What do you have now??

Travel?
Push?
Holding?
No Call?

Just wondering

mick Wed Jul 09, 2003 10:47am

Quote:

Originally posted by RefSouthAlb

Ok to add a fly in the ointment. What if when the B1 pivots the stuck arm causes him to shuffle/stumble. What do you have now??

Travel?
Push?
Holding?
No Call?

Just wondering

Easy... illegal hands. ;)

(<I>"...but I was just tryin' to get away, but he had my arm!"</I>)


Malcolm Tucker Wed Jul 09, 2003 10:26pm

Yes but if the arm is trapped by the other player then as long as no further contact other than trying to pull it out there can be no foul

Forget the B**** about who is bigger or stronger

Get a feel for what is right

Sometimes you need to throw the rule book away and get that feel for the game.

RefSouthAlb Thu Jul 10, 2003 10:49am

Don't you find in these situations that it always leads to more trouble. I see in these situations, most times B1 will start pivoting wildly to get A1's hand loose.

I agree it's nbo call at first but once B1 starts pivotong to get the hand loose something needs to be done to protect the players.

Not an easy call, but I agree use our judgement and call something only if we need to.


Jurassic Referee Thu Jul 10, 2003 10:55am

Quote:

Originally posted by RefSouthAlb
Don't you find in these situations that it always leads to more trouble. I see in these situations, most times B1 will start pivoting wildly to get A1's hand loose.

I agree it's nbo call at first but once B1 starts pivotong to get the hand loose something needs to be done to protect the players.

Not an easy call, but I agree use our judgement and call something only if we need to.


Sooooo,what are you gonna call?


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