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-   -   You Make The Call: Pass And Crash (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/91377-you-make-call-pass-crash.html)

Camron Rust Mon May 28, 2012 12:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by twocentsworth (Post 843705)
this few series of posts is a classic example of what happens on a message board....usually it's two different people both "arguing" their point of view....and they don't realize that they are each right...yet continue arguing for many pages....

If I were the Lead in this game (or the center), I would have called a team control foul on the passer. Shot not released prior to the foul, therefore no basket.

If you were the Lead in this gme (or the center), you would have called a blocking foul on the defender. If you deemed the foul to have occurred AFTER the natural shooting motion began, then you would count the basket.

We each have the rule interpretation right....we just disagree on the blocking foul.

IMHO, this is a pretty clear-cut team control foul on the passer. They could put the video of this play next to this rule in the online rule book as the "gold standard".
Fair enough...but your reply to whether the shot should count was to a post (that you quoted) ruling that it was a block...so that was the context. I can't read you mind if you want to flip the call without saying so.

As for it being clear cut, I called it a block because the defender stuck their shoulder out moved into the passer.

How can I tell? The directions the two players go after contact. The passer was deflected 90 degrees towards the sideline. The defender went mostly straight back but also slightly towards the sideline. The only way that happens is if the defender was moving towards the sideline at the time of contact AND into the side of the passer. The passer didn't go through the defender. If the passer had gone through the defender, the defender would have been knocked the opposite direction of the passer....certainly not in the same direction.

JetMetFan Mon May 28, 2012 09:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 843711)
How can I tell? The directions the two players go after contact. The passer was deflected 90 degrees towards the sideline. The defender went mostly straight back but also slightly towards the sideline. The only way that happens is if the defender was moving towards the sideline at the time of contact AND into the side of the passer. The passer didn't go through the defender. If the passer had gone through the defender, the defender would have been knocked the opposite direction of the passer....certainly not in the same direction.
I thought I was the only one who used this logic on block/charge situations :)

It's physics, folks, pure and simple.

BillyMac Tue May 29, 2012 06:10am
Rocket Science ???
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JetMetFan (Post 843760)
It's physics, folks, pure and simple.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/1p6fTDGLHGQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

JetMetFan Tue May 29, 2012 07:35am
Awesome! I went to a science high school (yes, this song was popular when I was there). We think about these things :)

Raymond Tue May 29, 2012 08:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 843711)
... I called it a block because the defender stuck their shoulder out moved into the passer.
...
How can I tell? Not as complicated as your answer. I can tell b/c I observed B1 step towards A1 and make contact with his shoulder into A1's chest.

Welpe Tue May 29, 2012 09:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 843498)
1st view...block...and count the basket.
I've clearly not had my head in basketball at all because at first I thought you were crazy on both points but after reading the discussion here, realized I wasn't looking at this right. :(

JugglingReferee Tue May 29, 2012 10:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by billymac (Post 843588)
maybe? And maybe bears defecate in the woods. Maybe the pope's catholic. Maybe the sky's blue. Maybe a one legged duck swims in a circle. Maybe a frog has a waterproof butt. Maybe chickens cross the road to get to the other side. Maybe water is wet. Maybe, just maybe, elvis is dead.
:d

Camron Rust Tue May 29, 2012 02:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 843803)
How can I tell? Not as complicated as your answer. I can tell b/c I observed B1 step towards A1 and make contact with his shoulder into A1's chest.
That too, but that point was essentially already covered and some just couldn't see it.

Even if you can't "see" it, you can use basic physics to tell what happened from the results.

Think billiards....can you ever hit a stationary ball on the left side and have it go left? No, not possible. The only way that the target ball can go left is if it was moving left before impact with more momentum in that direction than the other ball had in the opposite direction.

You can use these concepts to know who was moving into who without ever seeing the contact. (You have to see it enough to rule out flopping, of course).

BillyMac Tue May 29, 2012 06:44pm
But Still, I'm Glad That You Got A Kick Out Of It ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JetMetFan (Post 843798)
Awesome!
You really shouldn't encourage me. bob jenkins would be very disappointed in you.

JetMetFan Wed May 30, 2012 08:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 843921)
You really shouldn't encourage me. bob jenkins would be very disappointed in you.
It's only because you picked a song I like.

rsl Wed May 30, 2012 08:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 843882)
Even if you can't "see" it, you can use basic physics to tell what happened from the results.

Think billiards...
Unlike billiard balls, humans can change their direction. I think at least part of the passer's 90 degree exit on this play was because he had turned to make the pass and it was natural to step straight back. I agree with BadNewsRef- you need to see the defender step forward to get the call right. You can be fooled by physics.

JetMetFan Wed May 30, 2012 08:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rsl (Post 843988)
Unlike billiard balls, humans can change their direction. I think at least part of the passer's 90 degree exit on this play was because he had turned to make the pass and it was natural to step straight back. I agree with BadNewsRef- you need to see the defender step forward to get the call right. You can be fooled by physics.
It's not foolproof but it does work most of the time.

If I'm moving towards you and you're either not moving or moving away from me and I hit you, my momentum will take both of us in the direction I was going. If I'm moving towards you and you even move a little towards me, we're going to bounce off each other and head in different directions.

hoopguy Wed May 30, 2012 08:51am
For me, a no-call. I felt like the defender flopped. I think in an away from the ball, take 2 points away situation, to get a team control call it must be very clear. This is not clearly a team control foul, obviously, from all the disagreement.

Camron Rust Wed May 30, 2012 12:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rsl (Post 843988)
Unlike billiard balls, humans can change their direction. I think at least part of the passer's 90 degree exit on this play was because he had turned to make the pass and it was natural to step straight back. I agree with BadNewsRef- you need to see the defender step forward to get the call right. You can be fooled by physics.
Yes, people can add their own movement to the collision....but that doesn't make both people move differently. The key is not so much the offensive player's direction but the defender's. With your statement that the passer stepped that way, then the defenders subsequent fall in that same direction is even stronger evidence that it was a block....if he still fell that direction, he could have only done so if he was moving that direction.

And yes, you need to see it, but the reactions tell a lot....a confirmation that, yes, he did step into the passer.

Jeremy Hohn Wed May 30, 2012 05:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by twocentsworth (Post 843599)
Keep in mind that the ball has to be released by the shooter (not simply starting the act of shooting) when a teammate commits a foul in order for the basket to count.

If you think about it, the timing of these type of plays almost NEVER allows for this basket to count.
I was thinking the same thing. And MAN does that lead need to SLOW DOWN HIS MECHANICS. Too much Starbucks. Must have been an 8:00 a.m. tip..


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