You Make The Call: Pass And Crash
 

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1st view...block...and count the basket.

2nd view....same.

3rd view...same.

Block, not sure about the basket. Hard to tell if he started the motion. Probably would give the benefit of the doubt to the shooter.

Block and count it.

I see things differently here. What did the defender do wrong?

Block. No basket.

Defender moved into the passer.

And, since the passer was moving and didn't have the ball, the defender had to be in his path with time/distance.

Personally, I don't think the contact warranted a foul.

I looked at this frame by frame. When the defender comes into view, the offensive player still has the ball and the defender has LGP - two feet down and facing the dribbler, who still has the ball so no time and distance applies. From that moment on, the defender retreats a half step and then straightens up. So, this looks to me like either a no call or a charge.

At game speed, block, no basket.

At first glance: no call and let them play through. For me it looked like the defender embellished the contact...probably because he was moving into the offensive player's path when contact was made.

I have a block by Green because he stepped to his left with his left foot into White's path after White had releashed his path.

MTD, Sr.

I need a better computer, because with the angle we have, I'm not seeing the same thing. I want either the lead's angle or a better computer with more definition; or both.

I agree that the lead's angle on this would be best. Assuming the defender had/maintained legal guarding position, I'd still go with a no call.

Either a no-call and allow offense to score or block on B1 before A2 gained PC. Not giving Team A a basket and a foul.

Confused In Connecticut ...
 

AllPurposeGamer: Nice "pass and crash" video. Thanks for posting. There's a lot to learn in this video, and a situation that many of us see more than just a few times each season.

In real time, I've got a team control charge, no basket.

Lead official gives player control foul signal (hand behind head), not the team control "punch"? Did he call the "offensive" foul before the ball was passed?

I like the patience of the trail official, who puts up his fist but doesn't give a preliminary signal, thus avoiding the possible, dreaded, infamous, "blarge".

Many years ago our local board used the "train wreck" mantra, "Lead has the pass, trail has the crash". Now we are taught to stay in our primary.

Watch the video again. The lead is signaling a push. No hand behind the head.

Player Control Foul Signal ???
 

I did. The lead's right hand is behind his head. It's the player control foul signal.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7230/7...971ca927_m.jpg

Maybe he has his hand behind his head for a half second but he definitely comes out with a push signal after.

Pictures Don't Lie ...
 

Maybe? And maybe bears defecate in the woods. Maybe the Pope's Catholic. Maybe the sky's blue. Maybe a one legged duck swims in a circle. Maybe a frog has a waterproof butt. Maybe chickens cross the road to get to the other side. Maybe water is wet. Maybe, just maybe, Elvis is dead.

http://ts1.mm.bing.net/images/thumbn...864c7557306b2f

Good call by both officials. Definitely a team control foul by the ball handler.

I do not understand how someone would pass on this play....the ball handler went to AND thru the defender who had LGP.

Keep in mind that the ball has to be released by the shooter (not simply starting the act of shooting) when a teammate commits a foul in order for the basket to count.

If you think about it, the timing of these type of plays almost NEVER allows for this basket to count.

See, I don't think he really went through the defender...I have the offensive player pulling up...then going to the side of the defender. The defender, IMO, embellished the amount of contact there was on the play.

Except (if you have a block), the foul is by an opponent of the shooter and the cutoff point is being in the act, not the release.

How'bout we just focus on the topic of this thread, the corresponding video in OP, and assume that is what my post was commenting on?

When we get to a discussion of block/charge, I'll agree with you on the exception to the Dead Ball rule.....

For the purposes of this thread...I'll repeat myself: the ball handler who makes a pass (in a pass-n-crash plays) virtually ALWAYS commits the foul before the receiver of his pass releases the ball. You will almost never count the basket in this type of play.

Except he did not commit the foul, the defender did. So, my comment was about the video in the OP. The shot counts if the foul occurs after the receiver of the pass has started his act of shooting.

Scrapper says he has a block on this play, so how would the release be relevant to your response to him?

I got a block, basket is good.

Hated the mechanic by the lead, loved the hold on the mechanic by the C.

Now college rules are different than high school rules in how we adjudicate (if the call had been as I described?)?

Good play.

Pretty sure the rules are the same, regardless if one goes with a block or a charge on this play, between NCAA and NFHS.

this few series of posts is a classic example of what happens on a message board....usually it's two different people both "arguing" their point of view....and they don't realize that they are each right...yet continue arguing for many pages....

If I were the Lead in this game (or the center), I would have called a team control foul on the passer. Shot not released prior to the foul, therefore no basket.

If you were the Lead in this gme (or the center), you would have called a blocking foul on the defender. If you deemed the foul to have occurred AFTER the natural shooting motion began, then you would count the basket.

We each have the rule interpretation right....we just disagree on the blocking foul.

IMHO, this is a pretty clear-cut team control foul on the passer. They could put the video of this play next to this rule in the online rule book as the "gold standard".

Fair enough...but your reply to whether the shot should count was to a post (that you quoted) ruling that it was a block...so that was the context. I can't read you mind if you want to flip the call without saying so.

As for it being clear cut, I called it a block because the defender stuck their shoulder out moved into the passer.

How can I tell? The directions the two players go after contact. The passer was deflected 90 degrees towards the sideline. The defender went mostly straight back but also slightly towards the sideline. The only way that happens is if the defender was moving towards the sideline at the time of contact AND into the side of the passer. The passer didn't go through the defender. If the passer had gone through the defender, the defender would have been knocked the opposite direction of the passer....certainly not in the same direction.

I thought I was the only one who used this logic on block/charge situations :)

It's physics, folks, pure and simple.

Rocket Science ???
 

Awesome! I went to a science high school (yes, this song was popular when I was there). We think about these things :)

How can I tell? Not as complicated as your answer. I can tell b/c I observed B1 step towards A1 and make contact with his shoulder into A1's chest.

I've clearly not had my head in basketball at all because at first I thought you were crazy on both points but after reading the discussion here, realized I wasn't looking at this right. :(

:d

That too, but that point was essentially already covered and some just couldn't see it.

Even if you can't "see" it, you can use basic physics to tell what happened from the results.

Think billiards....can you ever hit a stationary ball on the left side and have it go left? No, not possible. The only way that the target ball can go left is if it was moving left before impact with more momentum in that direction than the other ball had in the opposite direction.

You can use these concepts to know who was moving into who without ever seeing the contact. (You have to see it enough to rule out flopping, of course).

But Still, I'm Glad That You Got A Kick Out Of It ...
 

You really shouldn't encourage me. bob jenkins would be very disappointed in you.

It's only because you picked a song I like.

Unlike billiard balls, humans can change their direction. I think at least part of the passer's 90 degree exit on this play was because he had turned to make the pass and it was natural to step straight back. I agree with BadNewsRef- you need to see the defender step forward to get the call right. You can be fooled by physics.

It's not foolproof but it does work most of the time.

If I'm moving towards you and you're either not moving or moving away from me and I hit you, my momentum will take both of us in the direction I was going. If I'm moving towards you and you even move a little towards me, we're going to bounce off each other and head in different directions.

For me, a no-call. I felt like the defender flopped. I think in an away from the ball, take 2 points away situation, to get a team control call it must be very clear. This is not clearly a team control foul, obviously, from all the disagreement.

Yes, people can add their own movement to the collision....but that doesn't make both people move differently. The key is not so much the offensive player's direction but the defender's. With your statement that the passer stepped that way, then the defenders subsequent fall in that same direction is even stronger evidence that it was a block....if he still fell that direction, he could have only done so if he was moving that direction.

And yes, you need to see it, but the reactions tell a lot....a confirmation that, yes, he did step into the passer.

I was thinking the same thing. And MAN does that lead need to SLOW DOWN HIS MECHANICS. Too much Starbucks. Must have been an 8:00 a.m. tip..