Jeff Van Gundy on "Flopping"

[twocentsworth]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You consider flopping differently than I do obviously. Obviously there is not rules definition for what a flop is or is not. I do not consider a flop or something that I would call a T under the rules by something where there is contact. And no I cannot think of a single play where a player fell with absolutely no contact. Now there were some plays where contact was embellished for sure or exaggerated, but that even happens when there is clear displacement either way.

Peace

as per my last post....we define flopping exactly the same.....you just seem to forget that definition when you are working a game.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

as per my last post....we define flopping exactly the same.....you just seem to forget that definition when you are working a game.

How do you know what I do during a game? And you can disagree all you like, but I do not see this as big of a problem that JVG made it out to be. I am lucky if one player flops in a single game and if they do, when we do not reward them they figure it out and stop. A lot of times it is just a player that is trying to take a charge but bails so much that almost no contact takes place and nothing is called. It is clear you have no idea what I call or why I call what I do in a game.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by jrutledge

how do you know what i do during a game? And you can disagree all you like, but i do not see this as big of a problem that jvg made it out to be. I am lucky if one player flops in a single game and if they do, when we do not reward them they figure it out and stop. A lot of times it is just a player that is trying to take a charge but bails so much that almost no contact takes place and nothing is called. It is clear you have no idea what i call or why i call what i do in a game.

Peace

+1

[twocentsworth]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

How do you know what I do during a game? And you can disagree all you like, but I do not see this as big of a problem that JVG made it out to be. I am lucky if one player flops in a single game and if they do, when we do not reward them they figure it out and stop. A lot of times it is just a player that is trying to take a charge but bails so much that almost no contact takes place and nothing is called. It is clear you have no idea what I call or why I call what I do in a game.

Peace

if there is contact and it causes that player to fall to the ground, then you should blow the whistle for a foul....that is a foul.

if there is contact and, in your opinion, the player falls to the ground trying to draw a foul, you don't blow the whistle....that is a flop.

those are the most obvious examples of what we are talking about. of course, it is not the ONLY examples of flops: the ball handler exaggerates a bump by flinging his head & upper body backwards; after releasing the ball - the jump shooter who immediately falls backward when a defender is near; the rebounder who yells and leaps forwards (out of bounds under the basket) to feign a push from behind when the rebound goes long over his head and he cannot reach it; etc.

these happen in EVERY game you've worked. you seem to recognize these as plays that "don't deserve a whistle", but you don't recognize them as being "flopping".

because officials do not penalize this deceitful behavior, it will continue because there is no "down-side" to the player....."if I flop and the ref doesn't fall for it, no big deal. if I flop and I get the call, GREAT!"

remember....you promote what you permit. the rules committees AND game officials promote flopping by their lack of action.

[tref]

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

if there is contact and it causes that player to fall to the ground, then you should blow the whistle for a foul....that is a foul.

if there is contact and, in your opinion, the player falls to the ground trying to draw a foul, you don't blow the whistle....that is a flop.

those are the most obvious examples of what we are talking about. of course, it is not the ONLY examples of flops: the ball handler exaggerates a bump by flinging his head & upper body backwards; after releasing the ball - the jump shooter who immediately falls backward when a defender is near; the rebounder who yells and leaps forwards (out of bounds under the basket) to feign a push from behind when the rebound goes long over his head and he cannot reach it; etc.

these happen in EVERY game you've worked. you seem to recognize these as plays that "don't deserve a whistle", but you don't recognize them as being "flopping".

because officials do not penalize this deceitful behavior, it will continue because there is no "down-side" to the player....."if I flop and the ref doesn't fall for it, no big deal. if I flop and I get the call, GREAT!"

remember....you promote what you permit. the rules committees AND game officials promote flopping by their lack of action.

Wait a minute, to flop, in & of itself isnt in the rulebook. The technical foul is for faking being fouled not flopping.
I may be wrong (I'm sure someone will point that out sooner than later) but the only place in the rulebook where I recall the word fake is in the free throw section... "the free thrower shall not fake a try."

You would agree that fake here, means the try never took place, correct?
Following that same thought process, in order for a player to fake getting fouled in block/charge situations the defender would have to flop or lay down without ANY CONTACT.
If there is contact & the player embellishes that is not a fake, it's an exaggeration of contact that actually did occur.

How many times have you made a block call & felt like the defender didnt have to do the antics & you would've called the block anyway?

It's a game & in games players should play, sometimes players become actors in the game that they play. IMO there's nothing wrong with that.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by tref

You would agree that fake here, means the try never took place, correct?

Sure.

Originally Posted by tref

Following that same thought process, in order for a player to fake getting fouled in block/charge situations the defender would have to flop or lay down without ANY CONTACT.

No. The fake means they try to make you think they were fouled when the FOUL never occurred. The rule doesn't say it is illegal to fake contact, but a foul.

Originally Posted by tref

If there is contact & the player embellishes that is not a fake, it's an exaggeration of contact that actually did occur.

They're not faking contact, they're faking a foul....not he same.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Sure.

No. The fake means they try to make you think they were fouled when the FOUL never occurred. The rule doesn't say it is illegal to fake contact, but a foul.


They're not faking contact, they're faking a foul....not he same.

Is it faking a foul if they think they were really fouled but are embellishing to try to make it more obvious?

These players honestly (I think) think they are fouled when their uniform gets brushed by the breeze.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Is it faking a foul if they think they were really fouled but are embellishing to try to make it more obvious?

Yes, it's all about the deception.

Now, do you whack someone who was actually fouled, and is indeed selling the illegal contact more? I sure wouldn't. At the most, I'd talk with the player about it, unless it gets ridiculously repetitive.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Is it faking a foul if they think they were really fouled but are embellishing to try to make it more obvious?

These players honestly (I think) think they are fouled when their uniform gets brushed by the breeze.

Yes. The actions are faked...the dishonesty and deception in trying to make the official believe you were fouled by either totally fabricating or exaggerating the situation are what is unsporting.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by tref

Wait a minute, to flop, in & of itself isnt in the rulebook. The technical foul is for faking being fouled not flopping.
I may be wrong (I'm sure someone will point that out sooner than later) but the only place in the rulebook where I recall the word fake is in the free throw section... "the free thrower shall not fake a try."

You would agree that fake here, means the try never took place, correct?
Following that same thought process, in order for a player to fake getting fouled in block/charge situations the defender would have to flop or lay down without ANY CONTACT.
If there is contact & the player embellishes that is not a fake, it's an exaggeration of contact that actually did occur.

How many times have you made a block call & felt like the defender didnt have to do the antics & you would've called the block anyway?

It's a game & in games players should play, sometimes players become actors in the game that they play. IMO there's nothing wrong with that.

Totally agree with you here.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

if there is contact and, in your opinion, the player falls to the ground trying to draw a foul, you don't blow the whistle....that is a flop.

Far be it for me to get in between the two of you, but this is where I disagree with you.

A player falling does not have to be either a flop or a foul. If, in bracing for imminent contact, the defender leans backwards to the point where he loses his balance, then contact from the offense isn't what causes him to fall. No foul. Remember, the rule is for "faking being fouled," and that's not what happened here, either, so it's nothing.

Most times, this is what happens. It's the same as incidental contact prior to a travel. We have to judge whether the travel (or fall) would have happened without the contact.

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

those are the most obvious examples of what we are talking about. of course, it is not the ONLY examples of flops: the ball handler exaggerates a bump by flinging his head & upper body backwards; after releasing the ball - the jump shooter who immediately falls backward when a defender is near; the rebounder who yells and leaps forwards (out of bounds under the basket) to feign a push from behind when the rebound goes long over his head and he cannot reach it; etc.

these happen in EVERY game you've worked. you seem to recognize these as plays that "don't deserve a whistle", but you don't recognize them as being "flopping".

All I can say is if this stuff is happening in every game you work, your area has some issues.

[twocentsworth]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

How do you know what I do during a game?...

Peace

btw....i know EXACTLY what you do during a game, because I have worked with you at various levels and in various environments.....

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

btw....i know EXACTLY what you do during a game, because I have worked with you at various levels and in various environments.....

Unless you live in Central Illinois and you live in my home town then you could not have worked with me that much. Maybe we have worked together but do not exaggerate what we have done on the court.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Unless you live in Central Illinois and you live in my home town then you could not have worked with me that much. Maybe we have worked together but do not exaggerate what we have done on the court.

Peace

I'm guessing he's speaking metaphorically.

[Raymond]

The most prevelant example of players faking be fouled are 3-point shooters who fling themselves to the ground when the defender breathes on them.

How many of you "call the T and flopping will stop" grandstanders have ever called a T for it?