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-   -   UNC-Asheville/Syracuse End of 1st Half (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/89907-unc-asheville-syracuse-end-1st-half.html)

Brad Fri Mar 16, 2012 08:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer (Post 832336)
I don't understand the people that say he should be awarded two shots but not count the basket. There's no need to account for any lag time...you have use of the monitor so you have definite knowledge of the timing devices.

You go to replay and see if the foul happened before the violation. Since it occurred before the violation, it means the clock should have stopped. Him releasing the ball before or after the expiration of the shot clock has NO bearing on this play since it expired erroneously. Put the time back on the game clock for when the foul occurred, count the basket, and shoot one shot.
That's a damn good point.

Hadn't thought about it that way. I think you're right.

(This is what a one-year leave of absence from the court gets me!)

JugglingReferee Fri Mar 16, 2012 08:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spence (Post 832279)
Re: the oob play.

Pass hits A1's hands, goes through his hands, then B1 collides with him.

How many are calling that a foul?
I got burned by a play like this on a big stage. Lesson learned. Call the foul. Adams is right.

VaTerp Fri Mar 16, 2012 09:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JugglingReferee (Post 832341)
I got burned by a play like this on a big stage. Lesson learned. Call the foul. Adams is right.
But on this play Adams said he would have given the ball to UNC-Asheville right?

The contact was after the ball had already been touched and was headed oob and was therefore incidental. No foul and possession should have gone to UNCA.

I agree though that the habit of ignoring a foul and awarding possession is a dying practice and we should just call the foul.

IMO we can still get away with doing this occassionally on marginal rebounding contact where both players come close to touching the ball and we award the ball to the team whose player may have been slightly disadvantaged by contact from behind.

But this has become a dangerous practice, especially with the NBA now making oob calls reviewable at the end of games. They basically have to call the foul now if they feel the contact is what caused the player to not be able to secure possession.

fullor30 Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:07am
Does it look like C has a foul call on OOB play? Has arm up, what else would it be? Not his line call.

Sorry if already discussed, haven't read through entire thread

Brad Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by VaTerp (Post 832352)
The contact was after the ball had already been touched and was headed oob and was therefore incidental. No foul and possession should have gone to UNCA.
Agreed. The ball was already on it's way OOB with no chance of the player recovering it when there was contact. I think it's incidental contact. No foul. Give UNCA the ball for a throw-in.

JetMetFan Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by VaTerp (Post 832352)
But on this play Adams said he would have given the ball to UNC-Asheville right?
Adams said he would've given the ball to UNCA but I think that was based on what was called/not called on the play (I didn't see his interview but there was a tweet about it on the NCAA web site). That makes sense. He may have wanted the foul called but if the crew wasn't going to call the foul, the ball should've gone to UNCA since the SU player was the last to touch it.

APG Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 832327)

Play #1: First, some of the posts in this thread questioned the use of PST. I thought that PST was used all throught the Tournament becuase it is used in just about every Division I game played during the regular season; and I think that the use or non-use of PST in this game has a bearing of how this play is handled. As an example: Let us assume that the Shot Clock is not a factor and only the Game Clock is a factor. If a player is fouled in the Act of Shooting before the Game Clock expires but the ball is not released before the Game Clock expires then the FG if successful will not count, and the Shooter will be awarded two or three FTs depending upon the type of FGA.
PTS or not doesn't not effect how this play should have be occurred. All PTS would have done is stop the clock in a timely fashion.

And in your hypothetical, in a game with a monitor, you would be wrong. You go to the monitor to see if the foul occurred before the expiration of time. If it occurred before the expiration of time, then any made basket would count along with the the remaining free throws. If the foul happened after time expired, no basket nor FTs.

In a game with replay, there's no way to award FTs like you would suggest.

*****

Went and looked at the case book play and it appears you may be right MTD, and if that's so, that's a godawful use of replay and don't understand the logic behind the case book play.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Fri Mar 16, 2012 01:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer (Post 832394)
PTS or not doesn't not effect how this play should have be occurred. All PTS would have done is stop the clock in a timely fashion.

And in your hypothetical, in a game with a monitor, you would be wrong. You go to the monitor to see if the foul occurred before the expiration of time. If it occurred before the expiration of time, then any made basket would count along with the the remaining free throws. If the foul happened after time expired, no basket nor FTs.

In a game with replay, there's no way to award FTs like you would suggest.

APG:

I didn't mean "go to the monitor to determine if the foul occurred before or after the expiration of time", I meant to see if the shot was released before the Shot Clock had expired and if time should be put back on the clock. I am shooting FTs in this situation no matter what.

MTD, Sr.

jbduke Fri Mar 16, 2012 01:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer (Post 832394)
PTS or not doesn't not effect how this play should have be occurred. All PTS would have done is stop the clock in a timely fashion.

And in your hypothetical, in a game with a monitor, you would be wrong. You go to the monitor to see if the foul occurred before the expiration of time. If it occurred before the expiration of time, then any made basket would count along with the the remaining free throws. If the foul happened after time expired, no basket nor FTs.

In a game with replay, there's no way to award FTs like you would suggest.
Dissent.

If PTS had been used and functioning properly, the clocks--both of them--would have stopped on the whistle. Replays show that when Corbett hit the whistle there was one second remaining on the shot clock. So the SC never would have hit zero, and no SC violation would or even could have been called. Basket would have counted, etc.

I've spent a bunch of time studying the applicable rules and ARs, and this thing is simply not totally clear. That doesn't mean that there aren't some arguments that are better than others. But for sure there are no directly applicable casebook plays which would clarify the entire situation (including the amount of time to be put back on the clock following the review).

One mistake that does seem clear is the amount of time that was put back on the clock. There was a 1.6 second difference between GC and SC at the beginning of the last Syracuse possession. Why, then, would the crew put 1.4 on the clock following the review?

Lastly (for the moment), the casebook needs to be clarified. AR 143 is what I think screwed everybody up yesterday, but it doesn't explicitly mention how it fits in with 13.2(c).

BktBallRef Fri Mar 16, 2012 01:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 832327)
I am joining the thread late and I will address all of the three plays in the order that they occurred.

Play #1: First, some of the posts in this thread questioned the use of PST. I thought that PST was used all throught the Tournament becuase it is used in just about every Division I game played during the regular season; and I think that the use or non-use of PST in this game has a bearing of how this play is handled. As an example: Let us assume that the Shot Clock is not a factor and only the Game Clock is a factor. If a player is fouled in the Act of Shooting before the Game Clock expires but the ball is not released before the Game Clock expires then the FG if successful will not count, and the Shooter will be awarded two or three FTs depending upon the type of FGA.

I just watched APG's video post of the play at the end of the first half. That said, my take from watching APG's video post is this: The foul occurred as the Syracuse player was starting his Act of Shooting and well before he released the ball and it also occured before the the Shot Clock expired.

If PST was being used the Game and Shot Clocks should have stopped on the whistle (It is my learned opinion that this play is a perfect example of why the Shot Clock should not stop with the game clock and another reason why I am not in favor of a Shot Clock but that it the subject matter for another thread.). If PST was not used, one question that can be asked is was there too much lag time between the time whistle sounded and the clock stopped.

From my viewing of the video was that the Official's whistle sounded and the Shot Clock expired at the same time which appeared to have happened just before the ball left the Syracuse player's hand. It is my opinion that the foul in the Act of Shooting definitely occurred before the Shot Clock expired. Since the ball was not released before the Shot Clock expired, then the basket should not count and two FTs should have been awarded.
First, PTS, (not PST) hasn't been used in the NCAA Tournament in years.

Second, if the foul occurs prior to the shot clock expiring, the shot clock is of no consequence. The SC and game clock should stop on the whistle.

The foul occurred just as the shooter started the habitual motion with his arms going up. NO question it occurred before the SC expired.

Raymond Fri Mar 16, 2012 02:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BktBallRef (Post 832280)
Any idea when they get their notice? Before the brackets are set? Afterwards?
I'm thinking after the brackets are set. Based on the officials I know in the tournament it seems there are not working games on Thursday/Friday for teams they see regularly in the regular season.

fortmoney Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:23pm
You have got to be kidding me!!! How can that Notre Dame player be that stupid??? This just happened yesterday!!!

APG Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:26pm
Whoever was that official with the lane violation call, the FF1, and the OOB nailed the end of the game!

How could that player go in early?!

David B Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by fortmoney (Post 832538)
You have got to be kidding me!!! How can that Notre Dame player be that stupid??? This just happened yesterday!!!
I haven't read the thread, but on my DVR, when ball is released no one is in the lane and the player behind the 3pt lane is still behind the line.

Is that college rule or when it hits? Confusing to listen to the announcers

Thanks
David

APG Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by David B (Post 832543)
I haven't read the thread, but on my DVR, when ball is released no one is in the lane and the player behind the 3pt lane is still behind the line.

Is that college rule or when it hits? Confusing to listen to the announcers

Thanks
David
Number 22 in white was inside the 3 point line well before the ball hit the rim. Only players in marked lane spaces are allowed to enter on the release.


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