Backcourt on "controlled tap"?

[refiator]

Team B steals the ball on a throw-in in A's front court, then A1 knocks the ball off of B2's leg...ball rolls into B's front court. B3 and A3 both go for the ball, and B3 pushes the ball back to B2, who is still in his backcourt. Granted, B3 never caught the ball in the front court...but would you consider a "controlled push" control enough for purposes of calling a BC violation?

[APG]

Requirements for backcourt violation:

1. Team control (and player control established at some point initially if coming from a throw-in)
2. Ball achieves a frontcourt status
3. Team in control is the last to touch the ball before it achieves a backcourt status
4. Team in control is the first to touch the ball after it achieves a backcourt status

A controlled tap would HTBT...a bat doesn't sound like team/player control to me. You would have to judge if Team B had team control (one rule of thumb is to judge if you would have granted a time out for Team B with their "possession." ).

Now in NFHS/NCAA rule set, this means one would adjudicate the play similarly, as the rules are effectively the same...under NBA rules, this play could/would be judged differently...

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by refiator

Team B steals the ball on a throw-in in A's front court, then A1 knocks the ball off of B2's leg...ball rolls into B's front court. B3 and A3 both go for the ball, and B3 pushes the ball back to B2, who is still in his backcourt. Granted, B3 never caught the ball in the front court...but would you consider a "controlled push" control enough for purposes of calling a BC violation?

When you say B stole the ball, if they gained control at that point, your situation is a violation. If not, this is the key. No violation. There is no "controlled push". Did he catch the ball or not?

[bob jenkins]

There is (or used to be) a statement in the rules book to the effect that "A player in not in control when s/he bats the ball away from ohter players." It sounds to me as though that is what happened in the OP.

[Scrapper1]

We really need to get the phrase "controlled tap" out of our vocabulary. So many people, including officials, use this phrase, but there's no such thing in basketball. The only way to control the ball, by rule, is to HOLD or DRIBBLE a live ball. That's it. That's the list.

If we just forget about a "controlled tap" and ask whether the ball was held or dribbled, we'll be a lot better off.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

We really need to get the phrase "controlled tap" out of our vocabulary.

College fraternities successfully removed this phrase from their vocabulary a long time ago.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

College fraternities successfully removed this phrase from their vocabulary a long time ago.

Must every thread include a lame joke from you?

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

We really need to get the phrase "controlled tap" out of our vocabulary. So many people, including officials, use this phrase, but there's no such thing in basketball. The only way to control the ball, by rule, is to HOLD or DRIBBLE a live ball. That's it. That's the list.

If we just forget about a "controlled tap" and ask whether the ball was held or dribbled, we'll be a lot better off.

We try, Scrapper. But two or three times a year, somebody still posts this question.

Why? I don't know.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

We really need to get the phrase "controlled tap" out of our vocabulary. So many people, including officials, use this phrase, but there's no such thing in basketball. The only way to control the ball, by rule, is to HOLD or DRIBBLE a live ball. That's it. That's the list.

If we just forget about a "controlled tap" and ask whether the ball was held or dribbled, we'll be a lot better off.

Exactly.

I worked with a partner a couple weeks ago, one who fancies himself as somewhat of a rules expert, who called a double dribble deep in my primary when on a rebound a player batted the ball away from the crowd, chased the ball down, picked it up, then started a dribble.

Same partner called a T for hanging on the rim when a defender was entangled in shooters legs because the shooter didn't immediate dangle and held him self up a moment (not a chin-up)...and he knew the defender was there.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Must every thread include a lame joke from you?

No. Not every thread. Just when I see an inviting straight line.

BktBallRef: How did your read my post? I figured, for sure, that I was on your ignore list.

Although I take basketball officiating very seriously, it's still a game, a game that I've been, in one way, or another, participating in for over forty-five years. Basketball is supposed to be fun. Officiating is both very serious, and fun, for me. Posting on the Forum is both serious, and fun, for me. Too bad that you can't read this paragraph, because if you hadn't already put me on your ignore list, then you certainly did after I reminded you in my first paragraph.

I do occasionally ask a good question, or offer a good answer, in some threads. And I challenge you, or anyone else on this Forum, to find a single post authored by me in which I have offended anyone, insulted anyone, or called anyone a name. I respect all Forum members, look up to some as them, including BktBallRef, as officiating rule, and role, models, try to make serious contributions to the Forum, and at the same time, try to have some "silly" fun.

If that's wrong, then I don't want to be right.

[refiator]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

. But two or three times a year, somebody still posts this question.

Why? I don't know.

Simple. Some people aren't on this post 24/7 to see everything that comes across.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by refiator

Simple. Some people aren't on this post 24/7 to see everything that comes across.

That's not the surprising part to me.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

No. Not every thread. Just when I see an inviting straight line.

Great.

Originally Posted by refiator

Simple. Some people aren't on this post 24/7 to see everything that comes across.

I don't know anyone that's on here 24/7.

[BballRookie]

My two cents:

In response to it being said that this question is posted on here every year: maybe it should be. The life blood of every forum on the internet is a combination of new users and old users. In this situation we have new officials who are curious (me) and learning (me) and we have a officials who have been at it for a while and discovered this forum long ago. With new officials joining all the time the "old timers" will probably have to be patient and deal with these inquiries.

Personally, I think it's silly to assume that everyone knows the answer to these questions or were on this forum 3 years ago with when somebody brought up a similar topic.

And.. yes, you can do a search by topic, but with the rules changing ever so slightly all the time so isn't it safer to ask instead of reading a post from 2004?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BballRookie

My two cents:

In response to it being said that this question is posted on here every year: maybe it should be. The life blood of every forum on the internet is a combination of new users and old users. In this situation we have new officials who are curious (me) and learning (me) and we have a officials who have been at it for a while and discovered this forum long ago. With new officials joining all the time the "old timers" will probably have to be patient and deal with these inquiries.

Personally, I think it's silly to assume that everyone knows the answer to these questions or were on this forum 3 years ago with when somebody brought up a similar topic.

And.. yes, you can do a search by topic, but with the rules changing ever so slightly all the time so isn't it safer to ask instead of reading a post from 2004?

It's not the repeated questions that surprise me, nor even the frequency. It's the nature of some of them. This particular question implies that the poster doesn't know the basics of player and team control. I shouldn't be surprised, given that there are plenty of playoff-level high school officials who don't know the basics like this. But it is a basic, in that player and team control affect so many rulings; not knowing this means you're really guessing on a lot of plays.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by BballRookie

Personally, I think it's silly to assume that everyone .... were on this forum 3 years ago with when somebody brought up a similar topic.

No assumption necessary. All I have to do is read the part of the OP's bio that says February 2009.

By definition, there's no such thing as a "controlled tap." Therefore, since knowing the definitions is the foundation of rule knowledge, I think Snaq is correct that many are playing a guessing game. No offense intended to the OP.