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Karl Hess tosses two NC State players
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Unbelievable....or not. But I love it.
I had a state tourney game today where 2 fans were removed...they were sitting behind the scorers table, and, unbeknownst to them, behind the site manager, who had them removed them for yelling disparaging statements about the officials. It turns out that they were the AD and Asst AD of the team that won by more than 20. Nice example. |
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That sort of behavior should be pubicized in the papers. Horrible that adults get away with this crap. |
Karl Hess Ejects Tom Gugliotta, Chris Corchiani - YouTube
This is a youtube link of the guys getting tossed. Sitting right behind the scorers table I'm sure they got in some nasty shots throughout the game. |
I don't know what was said but I know a few things.
1- if the idiot is right behind the table and is a distractions when we're trying to report, then I'm much more likely to get rid of them. 2- my guess is they got personal with Hess. 3- Hess bought himself some unneeded publicity. |
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Freaking clowns..... |
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Peace |
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It's Not My Job, Man ...
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Peace |
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The bottom line is Mr. Hess should not have interacted with them unless they were threatening him/partners physically.
It reminds me of a saying my parents told me while growing up. "Stick and stones my break my bones but words will never hurt" |
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And for all we know there could have been some previous problems at this school and with these guys. Sometimes officials are put on notice of these things and take care of what has been a problem. I just do not like to draw conclusions based on a very little part of the overall story. I can imagine throwing out a fan if they say some very specific things and not waiting to have them ejected. If we did this more maybe fans would realize that paying your money and being close to the floor is not a license to say anything you want. I love how one of the guys said Hess had "rabbit ears" but for all we know he could have said something that most of us would be inappropriate. Peace |
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Peace |
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2. Physical threats aren't the only thing we need to address. 3. It was a stupid saying when I was a kid, and it's a stupid saying now. |
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Peace |
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It shows their ignorance in my book. You just smile and say thank you and keep it moving. |
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1. You don't know what I know. 2. Physical threats are the only things i would concern myself with. 3. Yep, I expected that mindset. |
I never said he should not have gotten rid of them.
I said, he's gotten "unneeded publicity." If you think that it's a good idea to have all this negativity because of his actions, then you must be as big of an idiot as the two he tossed. He should have followed protocol, gone to game management and had them take care of it instead of standing at the table, engaging them and giving them the old heave-ho. |
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That is not ignorance, that is policy. I doubt seriously that the officials are told to ignore those kinds of comments even if you do not agree with them. I did not see the people at the school objecting and I am sure the conference did not either if those comments I mentioned above took place. Peace |
As a spectator I understand to an extent what he did, but I don't know what they said either. I think it shows thin skin. Players/coaches get heckled all the time, why are officials above this and untouchable? Just looking from another view point, coaches and players have to answer for their mistakes, why not officials? Not saying he did bad during the game because I didn't watch it. I've always wanted to see officials be open to the media, not about specific calls, but for questioning and comments. People would get more insight on what the thought process is behind certain things.
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NC State is fully supporting the two former players in this situation.
"I have spoken to Commissioner John Swofford and Karl Hicks, Associate Commissioner for Basketball Operations, regarding our concerns and our need for clarification as to why this occurred," said NC State athletic director Debbie Yow. "We expect fair treatment of our fans at State athletic events." Further, they are now planning an impromptu ceremony honoring the 1989 Wolfpack team on Tuesday that was not previously planned. The two players were part of the '89 team. |
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Also officials do answer for their mistakes...we all have bosses we have to answer to if something goes wrong. There would be little point in having officials open to the media...we know exactly what the questions would be. |
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I truly doubt anything racial, sexual and other inappropriate comments was said to Mr. Hess. If so, I am quite sure someone would have spoken up before Mr. Hess took the actions he took.. So thats quite a reach Mr. Rutledge. |
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As for your suggestion, the only thing that would come from officials being interviewed by the media is that more fans would post that time honored comment, "The refs think the game is about them." |
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Peace |
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As far as what Mr. Hess did, we don't know his side of the story, nor what he heard say. We only know what the fans told the local media what they said. The only thing we DO know is Mr. Hess should have gone through game management and had them deal with the fans. |
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1. I can include the behavior in my report after the game. Silently bring attention to the situation with the University and allow them to handle it. 2. I would do this at do this at the high school level too. File a report with the state and allow them to address the behavior. (At the high school level most scorekeeper, timers work for the school district) So if i hear it they can hear it too. |
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I also find it funny that people have standards for ejecting players or coaches if they use a certain word, but we are supposed to just turn the other cheek in a educational environment that would not be acceptable in any other aspect of life. Peace |
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Peace |
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Wonder if you would make derogatory comments about another official if your real name showed rather than 'twocentsworth'. I don't know Karl Hess personally ... but he sure works a LOT of games for someone who's a clown. |
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2. It is indeed funny. |
Honestly, I was hoping that the incident could have been handled in a more appropriate manner.
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1. I have stated I wish it could have been handled in a less publicized manner. 2. Just like you identify a problem player is the say concept towards problem spectators. You identify it early and put them on notice. |
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He got rid of those guys a lot quicker than if he had searched around to find game management, which should have been prominently seated at the table. |
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“Under Rule 10, when circumstances warrant, an official has the authority to request home game management to eject fans when the behavior, in the officials’ judgement, is extreme or excessive. It’s unfortunate in this instance that ACC protocol of communicating directly with the home game management was not followed, and instead, a building security officer was solicited. We will re-communicate this policy with all officials to ensure proper protocol is followed.” Obviously I wasnt there and as an official I am inclined to give Hess the benefit of the doubt. But based on the limited info I have I am of the opinion that Hess would have been better served by ignoring these two for the remaining 2:19 of the game. Or by following protocal and attempting to have a less visible conversation with game management. Also, what was a pretty one sided game without a lot of extracurriculars became very chippy after the incident including a double T. Corchiani is claiming that both he and Gugliotta had their families with them and did not use any profanity or say anything particularly offensive. And I have a good friend who is the videographer for NC State who claims that the two were very vocal throughout the game but did not cross any lines that arent normally crossed by a good number of fans during any conference contest. Of course this is one side of the story and again I am inclined to give Hess the benefit of doubt. But if I had to guess, I would think that given the opportunity to do it over again, Hess would like to have handled this a little differently. |
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I think a number of us (including me) have stated that Hess didn't go about this the correct way if he wanted the fans ejected.
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I'm amazed at the media and ADs, etc. that immediately come to the defense of the guys that got kicked out without having any knowledge of what actually occurred. Do you really think that these guys are ever going to admit wrongdoing? I don't know the specifics of what happened, but I do know the official in question has 25+ years of Division I experience, has worked the Final Four several times and the championship game once. Do you really think that he got to where he is by having rabbit ears and throwing fans out of games? I'm sure that these guys crossed the line and he had a damn good reason to stop the game, in front of 17,000+ other fans, and have them ejected — that's not something you do lightly. |
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Peace |
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Gugliotta showed his maturity by tipping his cap to the crowd as he was leaving. Fine example they set for their kids. |
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Heckling won't get you tossed unless it crosses a big bright line. |
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Peacce |
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I know he doesnt work in the same conference every night but going through game management is pretty standard practice. And it's not like we are talking about an obscure conference that Hess works a few times a year. This is the ACC. Hess should know their policies. A lot of us don't work for the same assignors all the time but are still expected to follow the policy of where ever we are on a given night. Like I said before, as fellow officials we are inclined to give Hess the benefit of the doubt. But I don't think blind support is a good thing. Even the best of us make mistakes, have moments we'd do over, etc. IMHO based on the limited info I have, I think Hess made a regrettable decision. Easy for me to say, I know. But that's my opinion. And what is pretty factual is that Hess did not follow stated ACC policy and protocol in how he handled the decision. |
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When the supervisor of officials for the conference says you "got it wrong" does anything else really matter?
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I really do not care what he tells the public if nothing changes it must not have been seen as a big no, no as some would like to make it. Peace |
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And also they said the procedure was not followed properly, not that it was Hess was totally wrong or that he did not have a reason to eject the fans. And the "Because I can" was in jest and sarcastic. Honestly there are people that can do things based on their background that others cannot. If you do not know that, then maybe you have not been around long enough. You should know how we have people that get upset over mechanics or signals that officials use not listed in the book and they do not lose anything for not following "protocol." Well that can apply here as well. Of course the ACC might not have been happy, but what are they going to do about it? And even stated that they need to re-communciate which to me means they did not do the job correctly the first time, so we have to tell everyone what that policy was to cover our behinds. If a policy is clear, then say "We made it clear to all officials what to do and Hess was wrong for not following them or ignoring them" No they have to re-communicate something that was "clear" right? Sounds to me they were not happy but not jumping off a bridge either because it was not followed to the letter. Honestly this is much to do about nothing in the end. I have seen fans ejected the same way in HS and small college games without someone going to GM to do the dirty work. Not something I recommend, but I have seen it done and no one got upset or made a public statement. Peace |
Hess Is A Shrink
Karl Hess is a shrink and his office is about 5 miles away for me. If you guys will take up a collection, I will go by and let him tell me during a mental session what was said. $150 an hour during the the off season is what he charges. Office closed November to April.:)
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You're Outta Here ???
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Add the embarrassing comments by AD Yow.... and you see what's deemed acceptable in Raleigh. |
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Here is an interesting article on the event
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Now that the background has come to light. What have I learned from this interaction with individuals on this board.
1. They love their fellow officials. :D 2. They believe because of your (stature, experience, and reputation) it gives you a free pass to do whatever you want. Because you know others will not challenge you on your behavior. :rolleyes: 3. They will attack you personally when you don't see things their way. :mad: 4. Once it's confirmed they are wrong, they still try to spin it to make you believe you are still wrong. ;) 5. The discussions on the forum are enlightening and gives you a different perspective on how others view not only officiating but society as a whole. I personally may not agree with others at times. I take what they say into consideration. :) |
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I just can't find evidence for 2-4 in this thread. 2: No one said he got a free pass, but the benefit of the doubt until more evidence came to light. It was also noted that he can get away with things that other, newer officials with less built-up credibility can. 3. I didn't see any personal attacks against you. A few face palms, perhaps, but no personal attacks. If you took it that way, you've got thinner skin than some have accused Hess of having. 4. This is just ridiculous, but if you could point to a post in this thread where someone spins obvious evidence against their opinion, I'll be happy to silently consider it. But apparently it makes you feel better to dump on officials to boost your ego. Just like a middle school crowd, but I'm ok with that, and I'm done. |
42. He may not have handled it per procedure but there's still nothing to suggest he was wrong to have them removed. :cool:
Edited to add obligatory smiley. |
Death and life are in the power of the tongue
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Death and life are in the power of the tongue.... Proverbs 18:21 |
Mr Hess is a dentist, I guess he got tired of the bull that the 2 All Stars were putting out. I think that Ms Yow needs to worry about her fans as Mr Hess has call several final fours and knows what he is doing. Shame on Ms Yow, she is a piece of work in the wrong direction!
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There appear to be more witnesses to the event beyond Hess, Yow, and the two former players: There are at least a couple people sitting at the scorers' table with ACC vests on. I'd love to hear what they had to say - and I image Clougherty has.
I doubt we'll ever have a fuller accounting, though, so we'll be left speculating and second guessing and presuming the best or worst of the individuals involved. |
Do you think Karl will be working the ceremonial NC State game coming up? Doubt it:D
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It's Possible ...
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I'm not sure what kind of Doctor he is, but he is some kind. I met him several years ago and he seems like an OK guy to me.
He has been around for some time and what my seem like comments that aren't over the line may have had something to do with things that happened when those two were playing. Just a suggestion; like everyone else, I don't really know. The ACC is his primary conference - he meets the requirements to be in the highest tier. He may or may not have known about the official procedure, but he is also human. I asked one of my friends what happened in a high profile game earlier this year and after he told me he said he wasn't going to pass judgement because things could happen to any of us...I don't think this is going to cause Mr. Hess to lose any games or sleep. |
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Hess repremanded by ACC
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I love the comments on the ESPN article. As if any of those a$$clowns have any clue about officiating...
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(Where is that ignore button thingy?) |
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BTW, the ACC also said the two had been previously warned by a security guard at the end of the FSU bench that if they continued to walk up behind the scorer's table and demonstrate regarding calls, they would be ejcted. |
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Do you think if it was two students at the school or two random people attending the game this would have even made ESPN? Doubt it. The quote in this article tells me all I need to know: "We're not denying we were all over him, but I've been doing that every game I've been at since I retired," said Corchiani, who said he attends just about every NC State game. "That's homecourt advantage." No, Chris, that's douchebaggery. |
NC State's Rules for Fans
Just for kicks, the following is in the NC State Basketball Fan guide for the 2011-12 Season...
NC State Sportsmanship Initiative Promoting first-class conduct from all those associated with NC State has always been the goal of the athletics department. Coaches, players, fans, staff, spirit groups, and students are all ambassadors for the University at sporting events. We all share the responsibility of promoting good sportsmanship at games and ensuring that the next generations of Wolfpackers learn the proper way to support their team. The “Wolfpack in the House” sportsmanship campaign is your guide to helping create a positive and enthusiastic “game-day” atmosphere. We want everyone to understand their role in creating home court advantage, but more importantly, realizing the responsibility we all share in representing NC State and respecting all fans’ right to have fun and enjoy themselves. Let your actions represent the best of NC State NC State is one of the top research institutions in the country, and our alumni and fans reflect that caliber of program Respect our visitors and game official Regardless of the outcome of the game, we can still show pride for our university through our interactions with guests. Cheer loudly, but with appropriate language Profanity or vulgarity can be as detrimental to game atmosphere as cheering support to your team is beneficial to it, make the right choice Respect fellow Wolfpackers - especially young fans The future of NC State is sitting in the stands today, our children will represent the university for years to come, let’s get them started out on the right foot. Be positive in your support of our team, coaches, and players There is no good reason to degrade the teams on the court, instead celebrate the game that is taking place in front of you. |
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Dont wait too long to hit that ignore button thingy. |
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I wonder if that warning was communicated to the two former players. |
My take:
Justification: We'll probably never know the exact reason Hess decided to pull the trigger. But, like others here I'm willing to give Hess the benefit of the doubt. If you're a veteran D1 official, I'd have to think you don't stick your neck out like this without good reason. I do find it laughable that Corchiani and Googs are claiming they said nothing more than "you're not doing a very good job out there." Considering that they went to Twitter moments after the incident, they've been able to frame the incident exactly in a way that absolves them of any responsibility. They've won the PR fight by a landslide. Execution: This is where Hess failed miserably, and he's received the necessary slap on the wrist for it. Who knows if he'll miss postseason games as a result. You don't give the heave ho like he did. You don't interact with said fans like he did. Say nothing to the fan(s), go directly to game management (or the closest thing resembling game management) and let them take care of it. |
You Are Outta Here ...
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